Honda + Nissan

davz said:
..
I’m not sure where you got your info from but there has been zero redundancies and non planned, there has been no factory closures and non planned. The factory at leipzig has temporarily shut down whilst the lines are converted to manufacturing the ev countryman. BMW is also gearing up to produce hydrogen cars as in the eu this is seen as a viable mode of transportation unlike in the uk where the govt can’t rub two brain cells together let alone create a logical policy for transport
..
Click to expand...

You are correct zero redundancies or factory closures, but that's not the whole story for VW, they are losing 35,000 jobs.

'The 35,000 job cuts by 2030 are expected to be found through different solutions such as offered early retirement.'
'The number of apprenticeships on offer each year in Germany will be reduced from 1,400 to 600'
' a 5% wage increase that was previously agreed will also be suspended in 2025 and 2026.'

And you wanted a source, Volkswagen agrees deal to avoid Germany plant closures

Not only that, but
  • Bosch
    The world's largest car parts supplier plans to cut 5,000 jobs, with about half of those in Germany. The company has committed to not laying off many employees in Germany until 2027, and a subset of its workforce until 2029.

    ZF Friedrichshafen
    The company is considering laying off at least 12,000 employees by 2030.


    Schaeffler
    The auto supplier plans to cut 3,700 jobs in Europe, with 2,800 of them in Germany.


    Continental
    The company is looking to cut 5,500 positions worldwide.





 
A lot of the non Chinese companies went into joint ventures with a number of Chinese companies to make EVs under their own brand name, Volvo for instance is made by Geely, there are a lot of Honda and Nissan joint ventures, this might be worth watching and this is 12 mths or more ago

My guess is the majority of these companies will become much like Volvo and just be a brand name selling Chinese built vehicles.
I don't think any of the major govt realise how deeply the Chinese manufacturers are imbedded into vehicle manufacturers they think are still home brand units, take away the Chinese support and these companies will fold ...... and the problem New Zealand had for yrs will occur, old clangers hobbled together to keep them on the road because there won't be any new vehicles at a price the average person or family can afford .....

I'm glad Australia hasn't got itself involved in this tariff nonsense, it didn't work before when they tried it and tax payer money being fed into the local car industry was just going off shore to the USA .... now the same thing will happen but the money will go to China, the very thing they were trying to stop .....

T1 Terry
 
T1 Terry said:
A lot of the non Chinese companies went into joint ventures with a number of Chinese companies to make EVs under their own brand name, Volvo for instance is made by Geely, there are a lot of Honda and Nissan joint ventures, this might be worth watching and this is 12 mths or more ago

My guess is the majority of these companies will become much like Volvo and just be a brand name selling Chinese built vehicles.
I don't think any of the major govt realise how deeply the Chinese manufacturers are imbedded into vehicle manufacturers they think are still home brand units, take away the Chinese support and these companies will fold ...... and the problem New Zealand had for yrs will occur, old clangers hobbled together to keep them on the road because there won't be any new vehicles at a price the average person or family can afford .....

I'm glad Australia hasn't got itself involved in this tariff nonsense, it didn't work before when they tried it and tax payer money being fed into the local car industry was just going off shore to the USA .... now the same thing will happen but the money will go to China, the very thing they were trying to stop .....

T1 Terry
Click to expand...

New Zealand had no such problems of “old clangers hobbled together “ it was only imported cars that were expensive, consumers could buy a GM, Ford or Toyota at a “normal “ price as these cars were assembled in NZ and were subject to import duty. When Rogernomics removed import duty what happened? Yep all the plants were shut with a loss of lots of jobs and the NZ car industry is consigned to the history books.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of Chinese integration with major manufacturers, Volvo is not in partnership with Geely, it is wholly owned by Geely, design and manufacturing takes place in Sweden and China, polestar (terrible car) is manufactured in China and owned by Geely. There are no other major manufacturers selling Chinese built cars in the west, there are of course partnerships in China to sell western designed cars with a mixture of western and Chinese manufactured parts, assembled to only sell to the Chinese, BMW brilliance is one such company and of course it was the Americans with GM who started it all by giving away their intellectual property to China to make cars there, taking advantage of extremely cheap labour due to greed for increasing profits and higher dividend payments to shareholders feeding their avarice.
The only real hope for western manufacturing is to end their arrangement of manufacturing in China (where the govt retains a 51% ownership of each factory) to stop the loss of intellectual property, but they won’t because they just see a massive future market for massive future profits at the expense of the workers in the west… killing their own market. I don’t blame trump increasing import duty to protect their people

GranTurismoEra said:
UK doesn't need to do anything. Its up to YOUR government to support local businesses and grow the economy. It is no one elses responsibility. Ford and co all got subsidies from government i dont see any complaints emanating from US about that just pure hypocrisy. UK government know theyll make tax money off Chinese products and can create a good trade partnership with China. Maybe some British companies that havent been ruined by America Inc could find China's 600+ million market useful for their products too.

In terms of pay youre comparing apples to oranges. Cost of living in China is significantly cheaper than UK and West. The pay would reflect accordingly. Many expats are doing business hence higher pay than locals.

So what I get paid $80,000+ per year. Means sweet FA when everything is expensive in UK. Chinas youth want to work our youth are disillusioned in comparison. Its easy to point the finger at a government that has to manage 1.4 billion people. UK government is only responsible for 70 million people yet we have 11 million idlers.....

Businesses like Tesla purposely avoid the UK for manufacturing but hire skeleton teams to sell their cars. because labour costs are more expensive. Why would I produce vehicles in the UK at £11 per head when ill get it done in China for £4 a head and not to mention theyll actually turn up to work and do the job. Not 5 million fag breaks, calling in sick and still collecting a higher wage. Makes no sense. West can cry all they want, but theres a reason UK and US are stagnating while pointing the finger at others.
Click to expand...
I think your view of Chinese car manufacturing vs the west is rather naive. Over the last few years the Chinese has subsidised the car industry to the tune of £320 billion and continues, the value that ford received as a loan to develop EV’s was just 5.9 billion, and that is to be paid back. Not only are there massive subsidies to the Chinese companies but also to the consumer as there are various taxes payable on western cars that are waived for Chinese cars….remember that phrase level playing field? The car manufacturers even get money from the govt for every car they export! But not content with paying slave Labour salaries BYD are now exploiting workers in South America where construction on a new plant has been halted due to “slave conditions “ having been found, which byd maintain they knew nothing about….sure.
I take it you’re Chinese and your role is to support Chinese views and MG as your view of western workers being lazy is just typical of a Chinese troll
 
davz said:
New Zealand had no such problems of “old clangers hobbled together “ it was only imported cars that were expensive, consumers could buy a GM, Ford or Toyota at a “normal “ price as these cars were assembled in NZ and were subject to import duty. When Rogernomics removed import duty what happened? Yep all the plants were shut with a loss of lots of jobs and the NZ car industry is consigned to the history books.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of Chinese integration with major manufacturers, Volvo is not in partnership with Geely, it is wholly owned by Geely, design and manufacturing takes place in Sweden and China, polestar (terrible car) is manufactured in China and owned by Geely. There are no other major manufacturers selling Chinese built cars in the west, there are of course partnerships in China to sell western designed cars with a mixture of western and Chinese manufactured parts, assembled to only sell to the Chinese, BMW brilliance is one such company and of course it was the Americans with GM who started it all by giving away their intellectual property to China to make cars there, taking advantage of extremely cheap labour due to greed for increasing profits and higher dividend payments to shareholders feeding their avarice.
The only real hope for western manufacturing is to end their arrangement of manufacturing in China (where the govt retains a 51% ownership of each factory) to stop the loss of intellectual property, but they won’t because they just see a massive future market for massive future profits at the expense of the workers in the west… killing their own market. I don’t blame trump increasing import duty to protect their people


I think your view of Chinese car manufacturing vs the west is rather naive. Over the last few years the Chinese has subsidised the car industry to the tune of £320 billion and continues, the value that ford received as a loan to develop EV’s was just 5.9 billion, and that is to be paid back. Not only are there massive subsidies to the Chinese companies but also to the consumer as there are various taxes payable on western cars that are waived for Chinese cars….remember that phrase level playing field? The car manufacturers even get money from the govt for every car they export! But not content with paying slave Labour salaries BYD are now exploiting workers in South America where construction on a new plant has been halted due to “slave conditions “ having been found, which byd maintain they knew nothing about….sure.
I take it you’re Chinese and your role is to support Chinese views and MG as your view of western workers being lazy is just typical of a Chinese troll
Click to expand...
It's a shame that in the US alone that the taxpayer subsidised the fossil fuel industry to the tune of $9.5b.

Then you have a global subsidy of $7trillion to fossil fuel companies
www.imf.org

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion

Scaling back subsidies would reduce air pollution, generate revenue, and make a major contribution to slowing climate change
www.imf.org

Whichever way you look at it, the normal person isn't seeing much benefits.
 
m4rmite said:
It's a shame that in the US alone that the taxpayer subsidised the fossil fuel industry to the tune of $9.5b.

Then you have a global subsidy of $7trillion to fossil fuel companies
www.imf.org

Fossil Fuel Subsidies Surged to Record $7 Trillion

Scaling back subsidies would reduce air pollution, generate revenue, and make a major contribution to slowing climate change
www.imf.org

Whichever way you look at it, the normal person isn't seeing much benefits.
Click to expand...
We have the same problem here in Australia, huge subsidies to the fossil fuel electricity generators that is no longer warranted, yet the electricity price is sky high. The average Aussie ends up paying twice for their power and only the fossil fuel burners get the benefit.

T1 Terry
 
davz said:
New Zealand had no such problems of “old clangers hobbled together “ it was only imported cars that were expensive, consumers could buy a GM, Ford or Toyota at a “normal “ price as these cars were assembled in NZ and were subject to import duty. When Rogernomics removed import duty what happened? Yep all the plants were shut with a loss of lots of jobs and the NZ car industry is consigned to the history books.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of Chinese integration with major manufacturers, Volvo is not in partnership with Geely, it is wholly owned by Geely, design and manufacturing takes place in Sweden and China, polestar (terrible car) is manufactured in China and owned by Geely. There are no other major manufacturers selling Chinese built cars in the west, there are of course partnerships in China to sell western designed cars with a mixture of western and Chinese manufactured parts, assembled to only sell to the Chinese, BMW brilliance is one such company and of course it was the Americans with GM who started it all by giving away their intellectual property to China to make cars there, taking advantage of extremely cheap labour due to greed for increasing profits and higher dividend payments to shareholders feeding their avarice.
The only real hope for western manufacturing is to end their arrangement of manufacturing in China (where the govt retains a 51% ownership of each factory) to stop the loss of intellectual property, but they won’t because they just see a massive future market for massive future profits at the expense of the workers in the west… killing their own market. I don’t blame trump increasing import duty to protect their people


I think your view of Chinese car manufacturing vs the west is rather naive. Over the last few years the Chinese has subsidised the car industry to the tune of £320 billion and continues, the value that ford received as a loan to develop EV’s was just 5.9 billion, and that is to be paid back. Not only are there massive subsidies to the Chinese companies but also to the consumer as there are various taxes payable on western cars that are waived for Chinese cars….remember that phrase level playing field? The car manufacturers even get money from the govt for every car they export! But not content with paying slave Labour salaries BYD are now exploiting workers in South America where construction on a new plant has been halted due to “slave conditions “ having been found, which byd maintain they knew nothing about….sure.
I take it you’re Chinese and your role is to support Chinese views and MG as your view of western workers being lazy is just typical of a Chinese troll
Click to expand...
Are you seriously suggesting the vehicles on the road in NZ were better back when huge import fees were in place, than the cars on the road now?
If you are only going to keep workers employed using tax payer $$, wouldn't that money be better spent retraining that workforce for a better and self supporting career? At least you cut out the seat shiners who get the big $$ and bonuses and actually contribute little to the business of making money for the business to stay viable ... then there are the shareholder dividends and ..... you get the idea.
If a company can't compete in an open market, even by encouraging to buy local to keep jobs local, then it isn't a viable enterprise ........


T1 Terry
 
When we went to NZ earlier in the year, we hired an X Trail and a Rav4.
Granted, I didn't drive either, but I got the impression the rubber band boxes were dire.

The RAV4 was better, but acceleration in the X Trail just seemed to result in masses of revs and very little movement, rather like a slipping clutch in a manual, but then it was very hilly. I believe this is idiosyncratic of these boxes.

Never been a fan of variomatics.
 
davz said:
Toyota has 3 bev’s and a hydrogen powered saloon.
Click to expand...
Oh? ev database only showed 1 for the whole of Europe, the bZ4X - what are the other two. And what use is a hydrogen car if there are only 16 filling stations for the whole of the UK?

davz said:
I disagree that it’s “pretty dire” one has to consider the global car market and then produce a line up that meets the needs of its consumers
Click to expand...
I said "pretty dire" because they had an opportunity to develop a range of cars. The market is going to change so rapidly if approx. 80% of new cars will need to be BEV's by 2030 they'll be left behind and either not exist or end up being a small specialist manufacturer.

turntoport said:
Well the H2 Mirai is selling well. (Not, unsurprisingly). Honda were, with the 'e'
Click to expand...
Really? Not one single one for sale on Autotrader at the moment. Only one 2nd user hydrogen car which is a Hyundai NEXO .
 
Everest said:
Oh? ev database only showed 1 for the whole of Europe, the bZ4X - what are the other two. And what use is a hydrogen car if there are only 16 filling stations for the whole of the UK?


I said "pretty dire" because they had an opportunity to develop a range of cars. The market is going to change so rapidly if approx. 80% of new cars will need to be BEV's by 2030 they'll be left behind and either not exist or end up being a small specialist manufacturer.


Really? Not one single one for sale on Autotrader at the moment. Only one 2nd user hydrogen car which is a Hyundai NEXO .
Click to expand...
16 filling stations, that was 9 years ago. I thought it was 5 now. :unsure:
 
davz said:
New Zealand had no such problems of “old clangers hobbled together “ it was only imported cars that were expensive, consumers could buy a GM, Ford or Toyota at a “normal “ price as these cars were assembled in NZ and were subject to import duty. When Rogernomics removed import duty what happened? Yep all the plants were shut with a loss of lots of jobs and the NZ car industry is consigned to the history books.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of Chinese integration with major manufacturers, Volvo is not in partnership with Geely, it is wholly owned by Geely, design and manufacturing takes place in Sweden and China, polestar (terrible car) is manufactured in China and owned by Geely. There are no other major manufacturers selling Chinese built cars in the west, there are of course partnerships in China to sell western designed cars with a mixture of western and Chinese manufactured parts, assembled to only sell to the Chinese, BMW brilliance is one such company and of course it was the Americans with GM who started it all by giving away their intellectual property to China to make cars there, taking advantage of extremely cheap labour due to greed for increasing profits and higher dividend payments to shareholders feeding their avarice.
The only real hope for western manufacturing is to end their arrangement of manufacturing in China (where the govt retains a 51% ownership of each factory) to stop the loss of intellectual property, but they won’t because they just see a massive future market for massive future profits at the expense of the workers in the west… killing their own market. I don’t blame trump increasing import duty to protect their people


I think your view of Chinese car manufacturing vs the west is rather naive. Over the last few years the Chinese has subsidised the car industry to the tune of £320 billion and continues, the value that ford received as a loan to develop EV’s was just 5.9 billion, and that is to be paid back. Not only are there massive subsidies to the Chinese companies but also to the consumer as there are various taxes payable on western cars that are waived for Chinese cars….remember that phrase level playing field? The car manufacturers even get money from the govt for every car they export! But not content with paying slave Labour salaries BYD are now exploiting workers in South America where construction on a new plant has been halted due to “slave conditions “ having been found, which byd maintain they knew nothing about….sure.
I take it you’re Chinese and your role is to support Chinese views and MG as your view of western workers being lazy is just typical of a Chinese troll
Click to expand...
Im not Chinese. But nice try. Again cost of living in China is cheaper so wages reflect accordingly. You can cry as much as you want about subsidies, government interference or aid or assistance to which we can find in western governments also.

Just because your government is lazy and count be arsed to bail out numerous failed companies including MG, Jaguar and the like its no ones fault. The BYD workers situation is unfortunate....but how does that reflect a whole countrys ethos around labour....i can use the same and simply call you a lazy Brit...but we know its not everyone.....although laziness and idling rampant across the country....its not all 70 million is it.... You want a level playing field youre a dreamer. The world has never been on a level playing field. I was raised very different from the average Brit. When i moved here it was evident both approaches are different. So it is in China. I dont think i ever went to school with a B grade Chinese student.....Just my experience....They were always sharp, excelled in school and got top jobs after. Same in LA with Taiwanese, Filipino and Koreans.

I went to a primary school were we had to learn 2-12 times tables by 5th grade. Be on time daily. It was very strict. I moved to UK the kids didnt know how to read or add in 6th grade. It was shocking. Kids swearing at teachers and running out of classrooms!

Im China B grade is not acceptable i went to school with Chinese students. Mediocrity is not acceptable and high standards is a must. Millions lifted from poverty. The east follows the Chinese model of education and strictness. That's why theyre outperforming the West.

Youre only way to dealing with it is to cry about unfairness, cheap labour, tariffs, slavery, Xi Jinping indoctrination etc...Its lazy, predictable and stinks of inability to be creative.

I live in UK, many are lazy. I can count on one hand who genuine hard workers are on one hand from a department of 36...sick days, smoke breaks, cutting corners, politics....unwarranted promoting.....nothing new......11 million of you are idling. With 5.5 million not interested in getting to work.

Imagine 11 million factory workers producing products for Britain to export. How much would that help UK? You see its a problem because UK would be called a "pariah state" for putting them to work....never mind any pay or conditions...as anything short of 15 pound an hour would be "slavery"....But most people dont care about their country the way Chinese are raised to care about theres even the ones that hate China due to discrimination would still not scam their own system and would rather work lol. Maybe the UK government can start withdrawing some welfare payments for people scamming the system.
 
Last edited:
Everest said:
Really? Not one single one for sale on Autotrader at the moment. Only one 2nd user hydrogen car which is a Hyundai NEXO .
Click to expand...
I initially read that comment about the Mirai as serious, but then realised the 'not' in brackets meant "NOT" as in what we used to say in the 90s when sassing someone.

It is unsurprising that H₂ cars aren't selling well, since they make no sense.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Everest said:
Oh? ev database only showed 1 for the whole of Europe, the bZ4X - what are the other two. And what use is a hydrogen car if there are only 16 filling stations for the whole of the UK?


I said "pretty dire" because they had an opportunity to develop a range of cars. The market is going to change so rapidly if approx. 80% of new cars will need to be BEV's by 2030 they'll be left behind and either not exist or end up being a small specialist manufacturer.


Really? Not one single one for sale on Autotrader at the moment. Only one 2nd user hydrogen car which is a Hyundai NEXO .
Click to expand...
Yeah; sorry, I was being sarcastic. Hydrogen is a wonderful solution but the tech is still very early in terms of maturity; most non-engineers don't fully understand Technology Readiness and System Readiness.
 
turntoport said:
Yeah; sorry, I was being sarcastic. Hydrogen is a wonderful solution but the tech is still very early in terms of maturity; most non-engineers don't fully understand Technology Readiness and System Readiness.
Click to expand...
The first hydrogen car was made in 1802, but yeah just 10 more years and it'll work.

Cost will be the killer regardless of technology.
 
Everest said:
Oh? ev database only showed 1 for the whole of Europe, the bZ4X - what are the other two. And what use is a hydrogen car if there are only 16 filling stations for the whole of the UK?


I said "pretty dire" because they had an opportunity to develop a range of cars. The market is going to change so rapidly if approx. 80% of new cars will need to be BEV's by 2030 they'll be left behind and either not exist or end up being a small specialist manufacturer.


Really? Not one single one for sale on Autotrader at the moment. Only one 2nd user hydrogen car which is a Hyundai NEXO .
Click to expand...
In response to your reply that Toyota only sell one ev in the uk…..have you ever thought of accessing the Toyota gb website? Obviously whatever database you use hasn’t been updated 🤷

Cut and pasted info:-
Toyota offers a range of electric vehicles in the UK, including both cars and vans. Here are some of their current models:

Toyota bZ4X
An all-electric SUV with a range of up to 318 miles, combining zero-emission driving with Toyota’s renowned reliability.

Toyota Urban Cruiser
A compact electric vehicle designed for urban environments, offering efficient performance and practicality.

Toyota Proace Electric
A versatile electric van suitable for various business needs, providing ample load capacity and a practical driving range.

Toyota Proace City Electric
A compact electric van ideal for urban deliveries, offering a balance between payload capacity and zero-emission driving.

Toyota Proace Verso Electric
An electric people carrier with seating for up to nine passengers, combining comfort with eco-friendly performance. These models cater to a variety of needs, from personal transportation to commercial applications, all while promoting environmentally friendly driving solutions.
 
davz said:
Obviously whatever database you use hasn’t been updated
Click to expand...
Obviously not, I only used ev-database.

But, in my defence the "Toyota Urban Cruiser" you suggest was only announced 6 days before my posting and is not even going on sale until Summer 2025. The others are vans, which I specifically said...

"Excluding vans, Toyota has 1"
 
Last edited:
turntoport said:
Yeah; sorry, I was being sarcastic. Hydrogen is a wonderful solution but the tech is still very early in terms of maturity; most non-engineers don't fully understand Technology Readiness and System Readiness.
Click to expand...
Not sure about still very early. Hydrogen has been the perpetual “also-ran” of car fuels since 1808. Throughout history it has been nothing but a sideshow compared to every alternative from steam to petrol/diesel and now pure electric.

I suspect nothing will change in that department.
 
Still questionable if the Toyota BZ4X isn't just a rebadged Subaru Solterra available as a standard model without the rear motor, but the AWD model ......
They have worked together on a number of vehicles, supplied vehicle for each other and Toyota has a financial stake in Subaru .....

T1 Terry
 
It is a known fact that the Toyota BZ4X and Subaru Soltera are the same vehicle under the skin. Many reviewers have made that statement. :)
 

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