Are "self charging hybrids" more economical?

[johnb80]

[ Moderator: This thread started here:

New MG HS self charging hybrid 2025

Hi Guys, I love the HS plug in, but I want a new self charging HS, I've heard a rumour that MG will be bringing one out early in 2025, is this true and if so which month?

www.mgevs.com

]

Self charging is marketing hype started by Toyota. Generating electricity from an Internal Combustion Engine is one of the most expensive ways to do it. Missing out the Plug In aspect that makes a huge difference in running costs. A self charging hybrid offers no real advantage, it has all of the extra weight to carry and cannot get a charge at low cost. Avoid like the plague.

 

[Jto]

I would totally agree with Johnb80 what is the point of using an engine to charge a car to run on electric as he says cost more to run. Take it from me I had a HS PHEV and in winter would cost £40 per month (depending on the temperature) in petrol and around £2 a night to charge up and this older car had 32 miles electric range. In the summer it used electric most of the time.
Why did I get that car, well back in 21 the charging infrastructure was not that good, but now it’s a lot better and is moving forward. On the long journey I would make there are good charging places.
I have now gone over to full EV and I am not spending any where the same in charging it but still experimenting on that.

 

[johnb80]

Hmm, not the question I asked

Agreed, my response is simply suggesting why on earth would you want to get a vehicle that offers no advantage over a PHEV, on the face of it, it makes no sense.

 

[djenson]

Agreed, my response is simply suggesting why on earth would you want to get a vehicle that offers no advantage over a PHEV, on the face of it, it makes no sense.

Self charging is marketing hype started by Toyota. Generating electricity from an Internal Combustion Engine is one of the most expensive ways to do it. Missing out the Plug In aspect that makes a huge difference in running costs. A self charging hybrid offers no real advantage, it has all of the extra weight to carry and cannot get a charge at low cost. Avoid like the plague.

This is just blatantly false. Why do you think cars like the prius are extemely popular amongst taxi drivers? They are cheap to run and don't require charging. They don't have "all of the extra weight" to carry, they generally have a 1-2 kWh battery and a small motor and inverter and have no need for an OBC. They take all the energy that would be typically wasted using brakes and also enable the engine to run in the Atkinson cycle schema much more often, improving the efficiency of the engine.

Though not great over the PHEV for people who:

1. Make trips under the range of the PHEVs battery range
2. Have home charging facility's

They're a great option for those who don't have access to charge the car or make trips longer than the range of the PHEV while lowering running costs

Its important not to assume someone's situation and choose the correct car for them as only they know best how they are going to use the vehicle.

 

[johnb80]

This is just blatantly false. Why do you think cars like the prius are extemely popular amongst taxi drivers?

Due to ULEZ and the like.

They are cheap to run and don't require charging.

Ford Focus petrol mpg 51, Prius 49 dont see it being cheap to run.

They don't have "all of the extra weight" to carry, they generally have a 1-2 kWh battery and a small motor and inverter and have no need for an OBC. They take all the energy that would be typically wasted using brakes and also enable the engine to run in the Atkinson cycle schema much more often, improving the efficiency of the engine.

Extra weight circa 140 kg for the battery, speed controller, motor, alternator etc.

The Atkinson cycle does improve efficiency as you say, by leaving the inlet valve open longer thereby pushing some air back out of the cylinder into the inlet manifold. It significantly reduces the power of the engine by effectively making the engine smaller in capacity.

Though not great over the PHEV for people who:

1. Make trips under the range of the PHEVs battery range
2. Have home charging facility's

They're a great option for those who don't have access to charge the car or make trips longer than the range of the PHEV while lowering running costs

Absolutely not, they only have downsides. The regen braking gains are countered by the extra weight to move off. You may as well have a non hybrid vehicle.

Its important not to assume someone's situation and choose the correct car for them as only they know best how they are going to use the vehicle.

There is no use case where the 'self charging' hybrid is a good choice except if you go into a ULEZ zone AND the zone rates a self charging hybrid as zero rate.

 

[Coulomb]

Ford Focus petrol mpg 51, Prius 49 dont see it being cheap to run.

That's a striking claim. Can you provide links to these figures, please? A quick search is confusing, due to the many Focus models, and the infuriating difference between UK and US gallons.

 

[johnb80]

Parker’s guide for similar performance spec.

 

[Coulomb]

Parker’s guide for similar performance spec.

Ok, but you didn't state which specs you chose. I see that there are a vast number of options to choose, so it's hard to be fair.

I picked: Toyota Prius Hatchback 2015 specs & dimensions | Parkers Active with Nav and found 83 mpg.

Ford Focus Hatchback 2018 Standard Trim specs & dimensions with the Active trim said 51.4 - 61.4 mpg.

That appears to be a significant win for the hybrid model.

Would you care to give exact variants for how you came to those figures? With my lack of knowledge of these models, I may have picked dissimilar models. I think the Prius has a 1.8L engine, and the Focus 1.0? The only petrol Focus seems to also have Ecoboost hybrid mHEV, which doesn't sound like what you picked.

It might be easier to pick say a petrol Kona versus a non plug-in hybrid Kona. I'm pretty sure that they use the exact same body.

Edit: Or any other common vehicle that comes in both petrol and hybrid drivetrains.

 

[djenson]

Due to ULEZ and the like.


Ford Focus petrol mpg 51, Prius 49 dont see it being cheap to run.


Extra weight circa 140 kg for the battery, speed controller, motor, alternator etc.

The Atkinson cycle does improve efficiency as you say, by leaving the inlet valve open longer thereby pushing some air back out of the cylinder into the inlet manifold. It significantly reduces the power of the engine by effectively making the engine smaller in capacity.


Absolutely not, they only have downsides. The regen braking gains are countered by the extra weight to move off. You may as well have a non hybrid vehicle.


There is no use case where the 'self charging' hybrid is a good choice except if you go into a ULEZ zone AND the zone rates a self charging hybrid as zero rate.

A 2005 petrol is ULEZ complaint. Hardly a reason to dash out £££££ on a new hybrid.

Your MPG claims.. Interesting to say the least. I suspect your using extra urban figures which is not what the average driver does. The main point of the hybrid system is in towns and stop and start situations. Otherwise everyone would have a 1.3 diesel for 70mpg.

140kg is not the same amount of weight as a PHEV adds, and in the grand scheme of things, is relatively a small amount of weight.

Yes, the Atkinson cycle reduces power output. That's why hybrids can make better use of it due to being able to run the ICE at a constant speed charging the battery while the electric motor can respond to varying demand. (E-CVT)


I'm not going to continue in the discussion because it is blatantly off topic to OPs question. I'll leave this video here.

[ Edit moderator: 140KG → 140kg ]

 

[johnb80]

A 2005 petrol is ULEZ complaint. Hardly a reason to dash out £££££ on a new hybrid.

Your MPG claims.. Interesting to say the least. I suspect your using extra urban figures which is not what the average driver does. The main point of the hybrid system is in towns and stop and start situations. Otherwise everyone would have a 1.3 diesel for 70mpg.

I completely agree, around towns a Hybrid offers some advantage but it's lost once you get to the open road. The 'self charging hybrid' tag really grates on me, they promote it as an advantage over a Plug In Hybrid which of course it isnt.

140kg is not the same amount of weight as a PHEV adds, and in the grand scheme of things, is relatively a small amount of weight.

140 Kg is the weight of the battery, motor, speed controller and alternator required

Yes, the Atkinson cycle reduces power output. That's why hybrids can make better use of it due to being able to run the ICE at a constant speed charging the battery while the electric motor can respond to varying demand. (E-CVT)

Yup, absolutely. We had a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV for 180,000 miles. It was great for the daily commute which was around 6 miles each way and could be don on EV only. Longer trips when the engine came into play the MPG was circa 45 which for a medium 4x4 wasnt bad. If it had been hybrid only it would have been pointless.

I'm not going to continue in the discussion because it is blatantly off topic to OPs question. I'll leave this video here.

[ Edit moderator: 140KG → 140kg ]

Interesting video, thank you.

 

[Freeway]

Self charging is marketing hype started by Toyota. Generating electricity from an Internal Combustion Engine is one of the most expensive ways to do it. Missing out the Plug In aspect that makes a huge difference in running costs. A self charging hybrid offers no real advantage, it has all of the extra weight to carry and cannot get a charge at low cost. Avoid like the plague.

I completely disagree. I have a MG3 hybrid and get 62 mpg which I am happy with. My neighbour has a Toyota plug in and after 30 miles the engine cuts in as the battery has been used up. Avoid like the plague.

 

[Cafeg]

We have a 2023 MG HS PHEV and a 2010 Toyota Prius.
The PHEV averages in between fillups 0.8 litres per 100kms.
The Prius hybrid averages 6.5 litres per 100kms.
Both are used around town and out of town trips.

If we do just around town running using the 63km electric range the phev gets down to 0.4 L/100kms and goes for well over 2000 kms in between petrol fills.
Prius goes for around 550kms and is filled 4 times compared to the PHEV once fill.

The phev we charge at home with solar+ powerwall2 battery. The running costs on the phev are next to nothing.

Servicing costs are the same around NZ$400 to $500 costs a dealer service. both cars are serviced every 10 000 km or 1 year whichever comes first (PHEV has only had one service). The PHEV being new costs are right down as everything is new with a 3 year warranty of fitness and the Prius is yearly warranty fitness.

The hybrid battery just went on the Prius 3 months ago @ 120 000 km and cost just over NZ$5000 to replace it. Prius have been self charging for years and until high range PHEVs came out they were a good option.

Next year we will be replacing the Prius with either a another PHEV hybrid or full electric. We haven't decided that yet.. if next years PHEVs have a electric range of more than 100 km it could be a deciding factor

The MG PHEV is really comfortable to drive and we are very happy with it

 

[Coulomb]

The hybrid battery just went on the Prius 3 months ago

Presumably economy on the Prius improved somewhat after that. So unfortunately you are comparing a new PHEV to a non-plugin hybrid with an old battery.

However, I don't doubt that the PHEV is still far more economical, even when comparing new with new.

 

[Deleted member 18108]

A 2005 petrol is ULEZ complaint. Hardly a reason to dash out £££££ on a new hybrid.

Your MPG claims.. Interesting to say the least. I suspect your using extra urban figures which is not what the average driver does. The main point of the hybrid system is in towns and stop and start situations. Otherwise everyone would have a 1.3 diesel for 70mpg.

140kg is not the same amount of weight as a PHEV adds, and in the grand scheme of things, is relatively a small amount of weight.

Yes, the Atkinson cycle reduces power output. That's why hybrids can make better use of it due to being able to run the ICE at a constant speed charging the battery while the electric motor can respond to varying demand. (E-CVT)


I'm not going to continue in the discussion because it is blatantly off topic to OPs question. I'll leave this video here.

[ Edit moderator: 140KG → 140kg ]

I agree this is now so blatantly off topic, In fairness to it and to the Ops original post, it would perhaps sit better if it was moved to it's own thread at this stage.
[ Moderator: done. ]

 

[Jto]

Just one thing from the 1st April 25 you could be paying up to £500 road tax a year on a vehicle with any type of engine. Do not know the CO₂ emissions but can look this up.