Nov 17th Budget - Tax impact for EVs

[4ND]

Children please get back on topic ,
EV’s to pay VED ! Not bloody every thing else

Thing is though, the topic thread seems to have gotten some very irate and overly emotional at the cessation of freebies. Probably why it drifted!

 

[JohnInFrance]

Children please get back on topic ,
EV’s to pay VED ! Not bloody every thing else

Agreed, EVs should pay VED and this should steer back onto topic of the changes announced in the Autumn Statement.

However, paying VED will not fill the gap of missing fuel duty on the tax-take if, as the government believe, "50% of new vehicles regsitered in 2025 will be electric" - the hole is likely to be around £1400 per vehicle, per year (the maths and thinking here from earlier in the thread) - so as EV drivers I beliieve it would be foolhardy of us to expect that the government will stop at VED .....

 

[BugEyed]

the hole is likely to be around £1400 per vehicle, per year (the maths and thinking here from earlier in the thread) - so as EV drivers I beliieve it would be foolhardy of us to expect that the government will stop at VED .....

Given that there's no hypothecation of the taxation the existing taxation is a mixture of "nudge" to reduce environmental damage and "just because they can". The second element is why EVs will suffer greater taxation going forwards as it will be more palatable to the public than increasing direct taxation, VAT or capital gains tax.

The reality of the situation is that overall we will be paying more tax in the future than currently and Government will not be able to resist taxing EVs.

 

[Deleted member 10041]

I think an initial step will be some form of tax added to the already quite expensive public charging costs

 

[BugEyed]

I think an initial step will be some form of tax added to the already quite expensive public charging costs

You may well be correct but that's likely to impact some harder than others.

 

[JohnInFrance]

The reality of the situation is that overall we will be paying more tax in the future than currently and Government will not be able to resist taxing EVs.

Yes, we will and why shouldn't they? When fuel duty brings in around £30 billion in taxes per year, if the demand goes down, the tax take goes down and thus it has to be found from other places.

Much as I'm a fan of lowering taxes for all, I think we're all realists and know that that is just not going to happen and in the UK, as with most countries, the motorist (however they choose to motor about) is just about the easiest target

 

[Paulie68]

You may well be correct but that's likely to impact some harder than others.

There's no doubt about it. It would see what is already a two tier system of those who home charge overnight for peanuts, vs those who have to charge exclusively in public at a cost somewhere in the region of ten times higher, exacerbated.

 

[4ND]

There's no doubt about it. It would see what is already a two tier system of those who home charge overnight for peanuts, vs those who have to charge exclusively in public at a cost somewhere in the region of ten times higher, exacerbated.

And maybe a third tier- those who celebrated the end of free public charging, when Joe depending on them as he don't have a home charger and is struggling with his energy bills, and the free charging was a slight ray in a dimming financial situation. What was great for those who celebrated the coffin nail of free public charging, who probably got their home charger and probably got enough coin to pay public when they need to, might not be so great for Joe.

 

[smokie]

Surely people wouldn't have spent £25k+ on a car expecting charging to always be free?

Actually I realise people do make such decisions. I've seen one or two on this forum who seemed not to have considered how they were going to charge their new acquisition at all before they bought it!!!

If my local authority was giving away charging to all and sundry I'd be protesting vigorously even though I could conceivably make use of it.

 

[JohnInFrance]

If my local authority was giving away charging to all and sundry I'd be protesting vigorously even though I could conceivably make use of it.

Here in France our Mayor does exactly that - it's not exacty free to all, you need to be registered and have an RFID card, and they don't explain how to do that - you either know (local) or you don't; but it's free and mainly generated by renewables (we have many, many solar panels and live in a quite sunny part of the world) so the overall cost to us all in our taxes is negligible and it saves us hundreds, if not thousands of euros per year.

BUT ..... while it's great, we'd be foolish to think such facilities will last forever - as with no VED in the UK, they are an incentive (hence why we have to register, after a while the town hall will start to charge for its use), so while the electrons are free we'll use them and be very grateful, but once they move to a charging structure we'll accept that we did well at the time and move back to charging at home without complaint.

I remember back in the day the UK gov't drove a change to diesel cars - the experts said they were better for the planet as they used less resources - by lowering fuel duty on diesel (as did the French). Then (I think it was) Gordon Brown during his Chancellor stints realised just how many diesel cars had been sold, worked out how much he was losing in revenue, ('cos they visited the pumps less than the same car with a petrol engine and fuel duty was lower) and promptly slapped a huge hike on diesel (I think it was around 10p per liter?). Then the same experts who told us they were good for the planet decided they were the choice of the devil and people (like Jacob Rees Mogg I guess?) who stuffed children up chimneys for financial gain, and taxed them again, this time via the VED system.

The reason I mention the diesel thing? Each time a technology comes along that one government's experts feel needs pushing for them to meet an agenda, whatever said agenda may be, financial incentives are offered to 'drive' (pardon the pun) the public towards taking up that technology (for instance, there is currently 0% VAT on solar and batteries in the UK (wish we had the same deal here in France!) as it's in the government's interest for people to install solar and battery storage as it helps towards their 'net zero' status). After a while, those incentives are slowly removed - either to reduce the spend on the incentives or to raise tax that is being lost in other areas by the take up of said technologies, we've seen it before, we're starting to see it now with the EVs and we'll see it again with something else; it's just the way things are and we should be looking at this with the "oh well, at least I benefitted for a while from it" mindset rather than "these crooks** are taking away all the free stuff I've been getting" .

** For reasons of balance, I have to point out that I am in no way describing the current UK government as "crooks" by this statement (despite the fact that they most obviously are all as bent as a nine-bob note)

 

[tsedge]

Here in France our Mayor does exactly that - it's not exacty free to all, you need to be registered and have an RFID card, and they don't explain how to do that - you either know (local) or you don't; but it's free and mainly generated by renewables (we have many, many solar panels and live in a quite sunny part of the world) so the overall cost to us all in our taxes is negligible and it saves us hundreds, if not thousands of euros per year.

BUT ..... while it's great, we'd be foolish to think such facilities will last forever - as with no VED in the UK, they are an incentive (hence why we have to register, after a while the town hall will start to charge for its use), so while the electrons are free we'll use them and be very grateful, but once they move to a charging structure we'll accept that we did well at the time and move back to charging at home without complaint.

I remember back in the day the UK gov't drove a change to diesel cars - the experts said they were better for the planet as they used less resources - by lowering fuel duty on diesel (as did the French). Then (I think it was) Gordon Brown during his Chancellor stints realised just how many diesel cars had been sold, worked out how much he was losing in revenue, ('cos they visited the pumps less than the same car with a petrol engine and fuel duty was lower) and promptly slapped a huge hike on diesel (I think it was around 10p per liter?). Then the same experts who told us they were good for the planet decided they were the choice of the devil and people (like Jacob Rees Mogg I guess?) who stuffed children up chimneys for financial gain, and taxed them again, this time via the VED system.

The reason I mention the diesel thing? Each time a technology comes along that one government's experts feel needs pushing for them to meet an agenda, whatever said agenda may be, financial incentives are offered to 'drive' (pardon the pun) the public towards taking up that technology (for instance, there is currently 0% VAT on solar and batteries in the UK (wish we had the same deal here in France!) as it's in the government's interest for people to install solar and battery storage as it helps towards their 'net zero' status). After a while, those incentives are slowly removed - either to reduce the spend on the incentives or to raise tax that is being lost in other areas by the take up of said technologies, we've seen it before, we're starting to see it now with the EVs and we'll see it again with something else; it's just the way things are and we should be looking at this with the "oh well, at least I benefitted for a while from it" mindset rather than "these crooks** are taking away all the free stuff I've been getting" .

** For reasons of balance, I have to point out that I am in no way describing the current UK government as "crooks" by this statement (despite the fact that they most obviously are all as bent as a nine-bob note)

John, you write really well, would you be willing to summarise the differences with the EV culture/practicalities in France? Maybe not appropriate for this thread, I don’t know, but I’d like to understand how things are different over there.

 

[Gomev]

Here in France our Mayor does exactly that - it's not exacty free to all, you need to be registered and have an RFID card, and they don't explain how to do that - you either know (local) or you don't; but it's free and mainly generated by renewables (we have many, many solar panels and live in a quite sunny part of the world) so the overall cost to us all in our taxes is negligible and it saves us hundreds, if not thousands of euros per year.

BUT ..... while it's great, we'd be foolish to think such facilities will last forever - as with no VED in the UK, they are an incentive (hence why we have to register, after a while the town hall will start to charge for its use), so while the electrons are free we'll use them and be very grateful, but once they move to a charging structure we'll accept that we did well at the time and move back to charging at home without complaint.

I remember back in the day the UK gov't drove a change to diesel cars - the experts said they were better for the planet as they used less resources - by lowering fuel duty on diesel (as did the French). Then (I think it was) Gordon Brown during his Chancellor stints realised just how many diesel cars had been sold, worked out how much he was losing in revenue, ('cos they visited the pumps less than the same car with a petrol engine and fuel duty was lower) and promptly slapped a huge hike on diesel (I think it was around 10p per liter?). Then the same experts who told us they were good for the planet decided they were the choice of the devil and people (like Jacob Rees Mogg I guess?) who stuffed children up chimneys for financial gain, and taxed them again, this time via the VED system.

The reason I mention the diesel thing? Each time a technology comes along that one government's experts feel needs pushing for them to meet an agenda, whatever said agenda may be, financial incentives are offered to 'drive' (pardon the pun) the public towards taking up that technology (for instance, there is currently 0% VAT on solar and batteries in the UK (wish we had the same deal here in France!) as it's in the government's interest for people to install solar and battery storage as it helps towards their 'net zero' status). After a while, those incentives are slowly removed - either to reduce the spend on the incentives or to raise tax that is being lost in other areas by the take up of said technologies, we've seen it before, we're starting to see it now with the EVs and we'll see it again with something else; it's just the way things are and we should be looking at this with the "oh well, at least I benefitted for a while from it" mindset rather than "these crooks** are taking away all the free stuff I've been getting" .

** For reasons of balance, I have to point out that I am in no way describing the current UK government as "crooks" by this statement (despite the fact that they most obviously are all as bent as a nine-bob note)

Nicely written, shame you had to throw political bias and potentially libelous insults in.

 

[JohnInFrance]

Nicely written, shame you had to throw political bias and potentially libelous insults in.

Where's the fun if one doesn't? (and there's no political bias there, I'm a lifelong Conservative voter just for the record)

 

[4ND]

Nicely written, shame you had to throw political bias and potentially libelous insults in.

?

 

[JohnInFrance]

John, you write really well, would you be willing to summarise the differences with the EV culture/practicalities in France? Maybe not appropriate for this thread, I don’t know, but I’d like to understand how things are different over there.

Sure - not for this thread but if you want to kick something off in a new thread I can happily contribute; there are other French-based users here too who would I'm sure be able to add in useful info.

 

[tsedge]

Sure - not for this thread but if you want to kick something off in a new thread I can happily contribute; there are other French-based users here too who would I'm sure be able to add in useful info.

Done, new thread is here:

Life with an EV in France?

Calling all French residents, Francophones and others with knowledge, including but not limited to @JohnInFrance. Please could you summarise what life is like with an EV in France. Specifically interested in incentives, charging, taxes, how common they are. Highlighting differences with UK...

www.mgevs.com

 

[Rocinante]

...... in their what are amusingly now called 'ICE' cars, ......

Not to kick off any sort of argument again, but I am genuinely interested what your issue is with "I.C.E.". you appear to have mentioned it a few times. At the risk of sounding condescending, you do understand it stands for 'Internal Combustion Engine', so I don't see why you seem to reference the term as you do.
I'm not sure what term you would like used in it's place, when referencing Vehicles with Internal Combustion Engines ?

 

[4ND]

Not to kick off any sort of argument again, but I am genuinely interested what your issue is with "I.C.E.". you appear to have mentioned it a few times. At the risk of sounding condescending, you do understand it stands for 'Internal Combustion Engine', so I don't see why you seem to reference the term as you do.
I'm not sure what term you would like used in it's place, when referencing Vehicles with Internal Combustion Engines ?

Proper cars?

 

[Rocinante]

Proper cars?

Really ? That's your response as a mature adult.
Referencing cars by their means of propulsion is too much for you to cope with and you find it 'amusing', but referring to them as "proper cars" is your sensible approach to their nomenclature ? Which also leaves the meaning fully open to interpretation, if people don't hold the same view as you.

 

[Paulie68]

Proper cars?

OK, gloves off. Proper cars eh? Well as we're going all childish, why not...

So would they be the ones that actually look like cars rather than something from a children's cartoon, and don't win awards for being amongst the most hideously ugly cars ever made?

Unlike your comedy Juke car perhaps? Behold!! ? ??

Just for you, we could refer to yours as a JUICE car? (Just Ugly Internal Combustion Engine)