Battery equalisation on ZSEV Trophy LR

[N2STY]

Maybe 4min of balancing is all it needed like I said it does this at 80% as well or whatever limit the car is set to

 

[Lovemyev]

Maybe 4min of balancing is all it needed like I said it does this at 80% as well or whatever limit the car is set to

Hang on, it only commences the start of the balance cycle AFTER the car has reached the 100% SOC surely ?.
Unless I am completely incorrect here of course ?.

 

[N2STY]

Hang on, it only commences the start of the balance cycle AFTER the car has reached the 100% SOC surely ?.
Unless I am completely incorrect here of course ?.

I've watched the cells balance on the app at the end of charge 1st it hits the % set then if cold battery heater comes on and a few minutes later charge complete or sometimes no heater and a few minutes complete
So I really think it trys to balance at the end of every charge

 

[Lovemyev]

I've watched the cells balance on the app at the end of charge 1st it hits the % set then if cold battery heater comes on and a few minutes later charge complete or sometimes no heater and a few minutes complete
So I really think it trys to balance at the end of every charge

IF this is correct, then why are MG suggesting charging to 100% once a month for LR models ?.
There is the contradiction in advice given by MG over the standard range model ?.

 

[N2STY]

IF this is correct, then why are MG suggesting charging to 100% once a month for LR models ?.
There is the contradiction in advice given by MG over the standard range model ?.

Maybe if it's over a month the BMS let's it do a longer balance if needed let's face it the manual is all over the place who knows what software the car had when it was written?

But this is at 80% ish after a 30or40 mile drive only 0.02v out of balance

 

[Lovemyev]

Maybe if it's over a month the BMS let's it do a longer balance if needed let's face it the manual is all over the place who knows what software the car had when it was written?

But this is at 80% ish after a 30or40 mile drive only 0.02v out of balance
View attachment 14614

That's the whole problem here, as we are left guessing and assuming with no clear direction ?.
And we ALL know that assumption is the pure killer of all !.
There appears to be no clear cut answer here ?.
Fumbling around in the dark really.
If I thought for one minute I would get a straight answer to this question from MG tech, then I would contact them, however !.

 

[N2STY]

@Lovemyev
I have been thinking which can be dangerous now I see it balance at the end of charge but what if people are using just off peak tariff to charge and don't hit there charge limit in that charge window then that balance charge once a month makes sense cos if they never reached their limit it never balances hopefully this makes sense to someone else?

 

[Lovemyev]

@Lovemyev
I have been thinking which can be dangerous now I see it balance at the end of charge but what if people are using just off peak tariff to charge and don't hit there charge limit in that charge window then that balance charge once a month makes sense cos if they never reached their limit it never balances hopefully this makes sense to someone else?

Yeah - I can totally relate to that !.
My "Off - Peak" tariff runs for 5 hours and there is NO way I want to be charging on that WAY more expensive day time tariff !.
In the head unit of the car, there is a option to carry on charging IF you have NOT reached the 80% SOC you require from that charging session.
Of course I have turned this OFF !.
I will pick up that lost range on a second nightly charge if I really need it.
I could collect the recommend balance if I thought it necessary, just by sliding the SOC level up to 100% then put the car on charge the following evening.
But as you have already guessed from our previous conversations, I am still not convinced that this charging to 100% once a month was intended for the LR models ?.
Standard - Okay.

 

[N2STY]

This is why I am approaching it's slightly different to others as I said before if we all do the same thing we all get the same results

 

[Lovemyev]

This is why I am approaching it's slightly different to others as I said before if we all do the same thing we all get the same results

I totally agree.
We should not have to be second guessing what we think is right or wrong here though, do you think ?.
Just a bit of simple guidance would be great, don't you think ?.
Standard range and long range have different battery chemistry, it would help if we had some good advice on how to treat each pack for its long term life of the car.

 

[N2STY]

I think the BMS will take care of the battery if needed remember if it's gets really out of balance it prompts you to balance(equalisation) charge
Btw the manual says charge once a month but nothing is said about 100% the only time it mentions full charge is for standard range (LFP) (type 2 battery)

 

[N2STY]

And is it me are does it sound like they're trying to steer you away from DC charging
As reading bullet point no.2

 

[Lovemyev]

Yes - I picked up on this even on the Gen 1 model !.
Heat is the big killer here !.
Honestly, I avoid rapids like I avoid automatic car washes !.
They are the devils own work.
I did two splash and dash CCS chargers on our ZS EV Gen1 all of the other charges where taken from our home wall box.
But, I think I used about three public 7 Kw posts for a quick top up in two years and 20,000 miles.
Rest at home !.
I am 110% convinced that our Gen 1 ZS EV had suffered battery degradation in that time scale.
I treated that car like my child in all respects, but I trust my gut equally as well.
I monitored that battery like a hawk from day one, taking records on paper each and every time we charged and then used the car.
I know, what I know and that pack had degradation for sure !.

 

[N2STY]

@Lovemyev are you not tempted to use OBD2 to get more data?

 

[Lovemyev]

I am, BUT the diag system that MG uses to investigate the car is totally protected and owned by the dealer ( for now ) so any suggestion of a third party application are likely to be totally dismissed in supporting a possible warranty claim problem.
They would treat this with the same distain as they do with regards to any information gained by customers from EV forums like this one.
I have had it said to me in the dealership !.
They like to think they have all of the answers and If they did, I would be happy with that TBH.
But honestly, I don’t think they really do !.
All of the gear, but no idea in my book.
Some of these techs had not even ridden in a EV never mind repaired one, when the ZS EV hit the show rooms.
E,G. - You are pretty certain that you have a problem with your HV battery in your car, you have collected loads of “Joe Public” data to support your claim and you present that evidence to your dealership.
They book the car in and are faced with this mass of information that “Joe Public” has complied - how is the question.
IF this info turns out to be accurate, then they are likely to need MG to approve repairing / replacing the pack.
They insist on run mining their own MG diag and they know that if this information supports a warranty claim for a new pack, it is likely going to cost about £6,000 to satisfy this claim.
Their diag computer is going to dismiss your findings there and then, right or wrong.
Even if they are correct, they will tell you that figures produced from a third party supplier’s equipment, is not recognised or accepted.
Only MG equipment can be used to support a claim of theft this size.
Been then, done that years ago !.
Having the information is one thing, getting them to accept your findings it is a totally different ball game.
We had a saying in the garage “Any doubt, then kick it out”.
Shocking but true !.

 

[N2STY]

@Lovemyev just to make it clear reading data from OBD2 port with third party software will not void warranty this is why all cars have it now it was to stop in house fixes only warranty is only an issue when people try to flash unlicensed software to the ECU ie modifications

 

[Frank]

I always feel like you guys concern yourself way too much about your battery health. Did you worry so much about you petrol diesel engines, probably not
.
I will always have mechanical sympathy for my vehicles but I try not to obsess about it. As far as the battery goes I let the BMS and the warranty do the worrying for me. Besides about the only thing that all the battery experts agree on is that slow (let's lump this under AC Charging (except for 22kwh AC chargers which is a mute point as almost ALL EVS except for the Zoe can only charge to roughly 11kwh anyway) is the best way to avoid degradation although ALL suffer from degradation when being charged but less so when being slow charged. Rapid chargers are the worst for batterys unfortunately which is not much good if you have to use them a lot.

Anyway I only use about 10% of my battery most days and it is only on the odd weekend that I go further but even then those journeys are within the return range of my car (190 miles is that usual journey) even driving without ANY economy in mind, I like driving and I am NOT going to drive like a hypermiler and not explore that lovely EV acceleration.

Now I could just charge my car once every two weeks but WHY, I have a home charger and therefore charge EVERY time the car is parked up for the night. I don't even have an EV tariff as I only charge about 1- 2 hrs very night except for when I return from the occasional long trip. To me the added benefits of charging every night are:-

a. I always have a full charge in the morning for those unexpected long journeys.

b. I have never had 12v battery problems over the 4 years I had EVS as I am charging my 12v and main battery every night.

c. I don't worry about equalization chargers as this is covered by the way I charge my car.


So unless you are keeping your car long term (outside the warranty) then why worry too much about battery degradation. Lastly about degradation, all it does is affect the range, the car stills drives the same as when you first got the car, quiet, smooth and quick. So if you suffer even 30% degradation the car is still infinitely usable (obviously not so much for journeys outside its new reduced return range). Even though I love EVS I would NOT buy one if I needed to drive further than my choice of EV'S return range on a regular basis. I would also not buy one if I couldn't charge at home.

Lastly an ICE which has suffered mechanical degradation (let's just call it wear and tear) most probably would drive like a bag of spanners whereas your EV with battery degradation is still lovely to drive.


So let the BMS and warranty do the worrying for you.

Frank

 

[Lovemyev]

I always feel like you guys concern yourself car too much about your battery health. Did you worry so much about you petrol diesel engines, probably not
.
I will always have mechanical sympathy for my vehicles but I try not to obsess about it. As far as the battery goes I let the BMS and the warranty do the worrying for me. Besides about the only thing that all the battery experts agree on is that slow (let's lump this under AC Charging (except for 22kwh AC chargers which is a mute point as almost ALL EVS except for the Zoe can only charge to roughly 11kwh anyway) is the best way to avoid degradation although ALL suffer from degradation when being charged but less so when being slow charged.

Anyway I only use about 10% of my battery most days and it is only on the odd weekend that I go further but even then those journeys are within the return range of my car (190 miles is that usual journey) even driving without ANY economy in mind, I like driving and I am NOT going to drive like a hypermiler and not explore that lovely EV acceleration.

Now I could just charge my car once every two weeks but WHY, I have a home charger and therefore charge EVERY time the car is parked up for the night. I don't even have an EV tariff as I only charge about 1- 2 hrs very night except for when I return from the occasional long trip. To me the added benefits of charging every night are:-

a. I always have a full charge in the morning for those unexpected long journeys.

b. I have never had 12v battery problems over the 4 years I had EVS as I am charging my 12v and main battery every night.

c. I don't worry about equalization chargers as this is covered by the way I charge my car.


So unless you are keeping your car long term (outside the warranty) then why worry too much about battery degradation. Lastly about degradation all it does is affect the range the car stills drives the same as when you first got the car, quiet, smooth and quick. So if you suffer even 30% degradation the car is still infinitely usable (obviously not so much for journeys outside its new reduced return range). Even though I love EVS I would NOT buy one if I needed to drive further than my choice of EV'S return range on a regular basis. I would also not buy one if I couldn't charge at home.

Lastly an ICE which has suffered mechanical degradation (let's just call it wear and tear) most probably would drive like a bag of spanners whereas your EV with battery degradation is still lovely to drive.


So let the BMS and warranty do the worrying for you.

Frank

Hi - You do make some very valid points here Frank with out any shadow of a doubt .
I guess some folks are just curious to learn about how their EV's work ( or don't in some case ).
I just think it is in your blood or DNA or something strange !.
Maybe I was in that group of people who was never content with just riding a bike as a child, but wanted to take it apart and put it back together again, over and over for no real reason ?.
Some times it can be seen as a bit of an affliction, when you are just unable to turn off !.
e.g :- Last week I was travelling in a taxi and found myself telling the driver to get his N/S/R shocker checked out because I could hear it knocking !.
Like he really cares TBH ?.
As a person of certain age, I don't think it is possible to change my ways now unfortunately.
I am truly past help now .

 

[Nickel]

As you say then, just a guess ! ?‍.

Well, not in the sense of mistaking 1.5-2 hours for 3-4! We kept a close eye on when the car finished charging and of course could see when it was balancing.

Numerous Gen 1 owners ( including myself ) have tracked via their home energy meters etc and have definitely witnessed two different balance cycle times, for both pre and post mod BMS updates.

I can't comment on the pre and post BMS issue, except to say that if I'd suddenly seen 3-4 hour times, I'd have been down the dealers in case something was wrong...

I do recall a long balancing immediately post-BMS, but had been warned about it by the dealer, so paid no heed. I don't recall 8 hours, but I simply don't remember how much.

After that, the behaviour was not noteworthily different from pre-BMS update. The car was mainly charged on our 7kW charger, but would have been on a rapid several times in quick succession about once a month when visiting our family in the Midlands.

I have not actually timed the length of the balance cycle on our LR Gen 2 model TBH.

Have you seen it do a balancing charge, then? If so, how do you tell, and how was it triggered?

I have not been low enough on our LR pack to get the "Low Battery" warning, that was orange coloured warning on the Gen 1 model ?.

Yes. There's apparently a similar warning on the Mk II, but I haven't seen it yet.

I always feel like you guys concern yourself car too much about your battery health. Did you worry so much about you petrol diesel engines, probably not

I don't obsess about the battery - but the manual says to equalise regularly, the old car used to do it routinely, and I've never seen it happen on the new one. I'd rather not wait until the promised equalisation warning appears and then find it takes hours and hours, that's all.

Bit like checking the oil occasionally

Charge finish is the end of the balancing process it can sit at a100% before charge finish comes up

OK - I'll pay more attention next time. My recollection is that iSmart has been showing the car taking 6.4kW right up until my last check before switch off, so I rather assumed there wasn't balancing going on.

Mind you, that does assume that iSmart is reporting accurate data which may be a big ask... ;-)

 

[Gadget Geek]

Following on from what Frank said;
Some ICE car enthusiasts just love to tinker with their pride and joy so that when you lift the bonnet, you need sunglasses to look at the gleaming engine, and they can probably quote every page of the Haynes manual (remember them?).

And some EV enthusiasts love to analyse all the data they squeeze get out of the OBD dongle and get the best performance they can, which is great, because we then benefit from their knowledge and experience when we have an issue.

Keep it up guys, you're doing a grand job.