Theft Without Key

That's nowt new, is it?
And it's the Daily Mail. Nuff said.

Well, I was just wondering if it was new...

As they hand singled out Hyundai/ Kia.

Does the Gameboy device work like the usual laptop grabbing information from unshielded keys?

Or is it different?

I believe Hyundai / Kia had a flaw where they could make keys via the vin

securespark said:

The subject of this theft happens not to be an MG, but in theory it could happen to any car.

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If you do a web search for "hyundai car theft issue" there are a number of different stories since 2021, including a settlement of a lawsuit with Hyundai/Kia in the US.

A security flaw could exist in any car, but the one reported and that has been used is for Hyundai/Kia vehicles. The MG security does not have this flaw, and (as far as I know) MG has no other security flaws being actively exploited.

Any keyless car is susceptible to relay theft.
Range Rover have had to change their keys so they don't stay active if not used.
(In some places you couldn't get insurance on Range Rovers).
Also see Fiesta STs, BMWs etc.

The Kia/ Hyuandai issue in the US didn't affect European cars.

The cost of a decent Faraday pouch isn't much. A Disklock or other steering wheel lock also helps. Thieves look for the easiest target. Having a lock makes your car less desirable from others.

Once in a good Faraday cage, there can be no communication of any sort with the fob.

The original question was whether the article should raise additional concerns about theft of the MG. In my opinion, the article describes thieves exploiting a software flaw that Hyundai has been working very hard to correct and does not directly connect to other car manufacturers. A security breach at one email provider doesn't automatically apply to all the others..

Yes, in theory, relay theft can occur with keyless entry systems, but in practice, it's not that straightforward if the communication between the fob and the car is encrypted. If the fob and the car are using a secure encryption protocol, it would be extremely difficult for a thief to decrypt and replicate the signal. Modern keyless entry systems typically use rolling codes, which generate a unique code each time the fob is used, making it nearly impossible to predict and replay the signal.

The suggestion for additional security measures are all good ones, but for myself, I probably won't be doing them. I like the convenience of the keyless entry. The article makes me neither more or less worried and until I hear about MGs going missing, I will continue to trust the software is secure, which means I can worry more about all the other things I worry about.

A "relay attack" is not a "replay attack", @QuentinM.

I believe the thieves use devices which relay signals to and from the fob (which is inside the owner's house) in real-time. This simply extends the range of the fob back to the car, and the random code which is generated is processed by the fob and the car as normal, so that the car can be stolen.

boyracer said:

A "relay attack" is not a "replay attack", @QuentinM.

I believe the thieves use devices which relay signals to and from the fob (which is inside the owner's house) in real-time. This simply extends the range of the fob back to the car, and the random code which is generated is processed by the fob and the car as normal, so that the car can be stolen.

Click to expand...

Agree this is easiest and more common attack.

Oh, after over a year of ownership I have realised that with our keys in a metal bowl by the door it is possible to open the car using the door button!

I had assumed the thickness of the wall and the metal bowl would have stopped this from being the case.

We have now bought a faraday cage box for the keys to go in.

I did check and it wasn't possible to drive off with the keys in the house, only to unlock and lock.

But I suppose that means the relay trick might have worked easily in our case.

Oooops!

Bam Bam said:

I have realised that with our keys in a metal bowl by the door it is possible to open the car using the door button

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That's worrying! It is a pity that some manufacturers just don't take security seriously unless it affects their sales (like happened with JLR).

I looked into security quite a bit when trying to choose an EV. This is what I can remember...

Kia/Hyundai have a flaw in their key fob encryption which resulted in the potential 80-bit encryption key having a number of 'fixed' bits, so that only 24 bits were available. So with only 16 million possible 'codes' the car could be subject to a brute force attack (using equipment disguised as a game-boy). Once the thief gained entry I think the ODB2 port was used to start the car. So no fob was needed at all.

The 'traditional' fob signal relay thefts allowed a wireless repeater to extend the fob's signal and hence unlock cars when the keys are in the house (as @Bam Bam noted). The 'fix' for that is to keep the fob in a faraday cage or disable keyless entry (if possible) via the car.

VAG group use a more sophisticated system which I'm surprised all other manufacturers haven't implemented yet. Firstly, the key fobs contain a motion sensor, so the fob goes to sleep once it is still for 30s. Secondly, the fob uses UWB technology which more accurately measures the distance of the fob from the car using accurate signal timing (i.e. in a similar manner to how GPS works). This means that relay attacks are not possible as the car will know the signal is not near (=quick) enough.
It also means that the keyless entry system knows which side of the car you are approaching and can enable either driver or passenger door to be opened keylessly. The only downside is that replacement key fobs are north of £500!

A key fob with an on/off sliding switch to isolate the internal battery would be an obvious solution, or is that beyond modern technology. On the down side would the insurance companies make it a condition it was off when not in use. Are there any documented stories of trying to avoid their contractional responsibilities with the present system as it is?

OriginalBigAl said:

A key fob with an on/off sliding switch to isolate the internal battery would be an obvious solution

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Perfect.. And to satisfy the insurance companies it could be designed so that switch could be 'normally-off' and you just press it when you want to engage the battery and send a signal to unlock the car

Everest said:

Perfect.. And to satisfy the insurance companies it could be designed so that switch could be 'normally-off' and you just press it when you want to engage the battery and send a signal to unlock the car

Click to expand...

Or you could have a uniquely shaped piece of metal that you have to put into the car haha

Everest said:

Perfect.. And to satisfy the insurance companies it could be designed so that switch could be 'normally-off' and you just press it when you want to engage the battery and send a signal to unlock the car

Click to expand...

I added a remote 'kill switch' to our previous car (Seat Ibiza), so there were two fobs, one for the battery and then one for the car.

This was because there was a phantom drain somewhere so the car was demolishing batteries (going flat, then often failing as a result). A kill switch was cheaper than getting an auto-electrician to investigate every nook and cranny.

Also had security advantages as noted - no way to start the car even if broken into, at least not without reconfiguring the battery under the bonnet.

I don't know why they don't all do a simple thing like Tesla, allow the driver to enable a pin-to-drive. The car can't be put into drive without entering the PIN. Probably not completely foolproof but it's another layer to get through. Heck, I had a Citroen back in the 90's with a pin-to-drive option so it's not exactly unknown tech and with today's touchscreens it's even easier to implement.

Don't know why, they just don't use, the good old fashioned, remote key fob. For doors and ignition, with a built in physical key, just in case the fob, fails. Simple's.
Oh, sorry I forgot, it's progress, innit.
Or not, going off some of the shit, that happens, with these electronic keys, etc.
Jesus, you can even open/close/start ya car, with ya phone now. Why?
Don't get me wrong, progress is bloody great, if it's an improvement. But for me these ain't.

Brought a faraday or pouch some time ago. Put the key fob in it sat in the car and the message said no key present

Yeah I had a P96 Xantia with a keypad.

Reckon the keypad got intermittent because sometimes the car wouldn't accept the number.

Got stranded a few times because of this, but eventually it would accept the number. Embarrassing though.

Everybody thinking I'm a sad git who can't remember the code...