Does the lady protest too much?

[Rolfe]

I sometimes wonder if we as EV drivers expect too much in wanting the same infrastructure as we were used to as Ice drivers? After all if our houses had been petrol fuelled and our cars had 20L tanks, how many petrol stations would be around if most of our petrol came from a tap at home?

That's like saying you wonder if EV drivers expect too much, wanting seat belts and head rests and car radios, like we were used to in ICE cars. After all, it took decades of development for ICE cars to be as comfortable and amenity-filled as they are now!

Motoring as a whole develops, and we don't go back to the beginning every time a radical new innovation appears. EV technology is standing on the shoulders of ICE technology, and that is how it should be.

There are already more EV charging stations than there are petrol stations. It would be nice if they all worked reliably, and if the busy ones had enough chargers so we didn't have to wait, but actual number of sites is not the issue in most places, despite the availability of home charging. There is absolutely no reason at all why the bigger sites should not have shelter, light and a place to buy refreshments available. ICE filling stations have shown the way.

 

[Gomev]

That sentence was actually in response to the post above it, in which you did respond to and quote me, sorry for not being clear.

No worries, so it was responding to my other post giving you lots of Daily Mail articles to have fun with that I quoted you on, and not the post I replied to and quoted @Amun about upping the game by 2030.
Still a little confused but hey ho as they say in the home counties or somewhere.

edit Ah I get it the 'lifes's too short bit' was for the DM articles, before you then quoted my reply to @Amun post about charger numbers ?

I think we can all agree about facilities and cover but that post was about numbers not facilities.

 

[GaryMG4]

That's like saying you wonder if EV drivers expect too much, wanting seat belts and head rests and car radios, like we were used to in ICE cars. After all, it took decades of development for ICE cars to be as comfortable and amenity-filled as they are now!

Not talking about what's fitted to the vehicle, just about the fuelling infrastructure and wondering how it would have developed if the majority of refuelling happened at home. Would the market have justified the number of filling stations, filling the 'shop' with goodies and coffee machines if the only time people visited them they were on a journey beyond the range of their car.

 

[Rolfe]

edit Ah I get it the 'lifes's too short bit' was for the DM articles, before you then quoted my reply to @Amun post about charger numbers ?

Yes! Exactly right. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Rolfe]

Not talking about what's fitted to the vehicle, just about the fuelling infrastructure and wondering how it would have developed if the majority of refuelling happened at home. Would the market have justified the number of filling stations, filling the 'shop' with goodies and coffee machines if the only time people visited them they were on a journey beyond the range of their car.

I see what you mean, but bear in mind that 40% of households do not have off-street parking and so will be using public charging a lot more. If 40% of people buying a car at the beginning of the ICE age had been unable to fuel at home that would have driven things in much the direction they went anyway.

Also bear in mind that lots and lots of EVs are being charged on public chargers every day. Lots of complaints about chargers being occupied and queues. It's not as if they'd be setting up the shop for a couple of people a day. And even more importantly, EV drivers are a much more captive market than ICE drivers. You can fill your car with petrol in five minutes, pay, and drive off. Most of the time I did that, although occasionally I'd be tempted by the display of sweeties. EV drivers have to wait, often for half an hour or more, and they're generally absolutely up for giving someone some money for a cup of coffee and a scone and somewhere to sit and read the paper.

I think the presence of the wee shop with the goodies and the coffee machine would be much more understandable and useful attached to the EV chargers than to the petrol pumps.

 

[GaryMG4]

I see what you mean, but bear in mind that 40% of households do not have off-street parking and so will be using public charging a lot more. If 40% of people buying a car at the beginning of the ICE age had been unable to fuel at home that would have driven things in much the direction they went anyway.

Also bear in mind that lots and lots of EVs are being charged on public chargers every day. Lots of complaints about chargers being occupied and queues. It's not as if they'd be setting up the shop for a couple of people a day. And even more importantly, EV drivers are a much more captive market than ICE drivers. You can fill your car with petrol in five minutes, pay, and drive off. Most of the time I did that, although occasionally I'd be tempted by the display of sweeties. EV drivers have to wait, often for half an hour or more, and they're generally absolutely up for giving someone some money for a cup of coffee and a scone and somewhere to sit and read the paper.

I think the presence of the wee shop with the goodies and the coffee machine would be much more understandable and useful attached to the EV chargers than to the petrol pumps.

I agree it will be interesting in 10 years or so when there are far more EVs owned by people without the option of charging at home to see where it goes. I guess more charging hubs like the big Gridserve with cover and facilities. My earliest recollection of petrol stations were where a man came out to dispense your gallons of fuel at 5/4d a gallon, oil, a watering of water and if you were lucky an airline.

 

[Grriff]

Unlike petrol, electricity can be dispensed wherever there is an adequate supply. Where my daughter lives in London there are on-street chargers, some in lampposts. I think we'll see chargers everywhere. I hope we get apps which will show all available chargers.

 

[GaryMG4]

I think banks of destination chargers would be an asset, be they lamp posts in streets or rows of granny chargers at locations you'd spend the day,7 and 22kw at cinemas and the like. I can put enough charge in at my local Sainsbury's while shopping to cover my mileage there and back, and a bit more if I stop for coffee.

 

[Rolfe]

I think destination chargers and rapid chargers are almost two different animals. My comments about shelter and refreshment are primarily in relation to rapid chargers.

Nobody, but nobody is going to want to hang around for the hours their car is going to be on a type 2 charger. These people are not a market for coffee and snacks, although shelter is probably a reasonable ask. Type 2 chargers (ideally) need to be close enough to the driver's home for him to walk back. Otherwise the entire EV owning thing starts to get quite difficult to make work. So lamp-post chargers, chargers in communal car parks serving blocks of flats, that sort of thing. Also of course associated with daytime destinations - town centre car parks, supermarkets, museums, garden centres, theatres and so on. But for day to day use the EV driver in a flat or mid-terrace house really needs something he can walk home from.

I'm talking about rapid chargers, which are in a lot of demand despite the availability of home charging, and where the average time to wait is something like half an hour. Most people are not going to walk home while their car is on a rapid charger. They're probably a hundred miles and more from home! That's the captive market for the wee shop, the sandwich bar, the coffee lounge. Far more receptive a market than the average ICE car driver, frankly. And yet it's the ICE filling station that gets the shelter and the light and the shop and the sandwich bar.

Commercial opportunity being overlooked, I think.

 

[GaryMG4]

So far I have only sampled DC charging in preparation for a longer trip later this year. The Tesla one was remote enough that the driver of the Model X in the next bay was brought back in a diesel pickup carrying his coffee, but I was only charging for 10 minutes to get a 28% top up. The instavolt was stuck away behind a petrol station, almost invisible from the road, but there was a Costa a couple of minutes walk away. The Polar one in Milton Keynes I would have preferred it to be 22kw so I could have hooked up while I went skiing for a couple of hours rather than doing a faster charge when I was finished.

 

[Gadget Geek]

The Swedes have got the right idea.

Over 1000 EV charging points for Stockholm Parking

www.ctek.com

 

[Grriff]

As the sales of EVs rise and petrol sales drop, I suspect we'll see petrol stations converted into EV charge points with cafés and a shop. Hopefully with solar panels on the rooves.

 

[Rolfe]

The Swedes have got the right idea.

Over 1000 EV charging points for Stockholm Parking

www.ctek.com

That's brilliant, and of course putting type 2 chargers in covered and multi-storey car parks solves the shelter problem, but it's not helping drivers who have to top up during a long journey and need a civilised and comfortable place to do that.

As the sales of EVs rise and petrol sales drop, I suspect we'll see petrol stations converted into EV charge points with cafés and a shop. Hopefully with solar panels on the rooves.

I would hope so.

One of the main reasons we need ZapMap and similar facilities is that the chargers that currently exist are almost invisible. I could drive into a strange town and cruise for two or three minutes and pretty much guarantee to find a petrol station - no map, no app, no need to ask for directions. Petrol stations advertise themselves to passing customers with lights and signs and a big display with their prices. EV chargers are tucked away somewhere unpredictable and invisible and you could drive past them without seeing them.

I hope this changes. We're seeing some petrol stations add a charger or two as well as the petrol pumps - although often still out in the open rather than under the canopy. It would be nice if we got to the point where pretty much every petrol station had at least one DC charger there. Then as ICE usage drops off and EV usage increases, maybe the positions will be reversed. A couple of rows of EV chargers under the canopy and a single petrol pump somewhere in the corner in the rain!

Ah well, we can dream.

 

[Grriff]

Visited Bodnant Gardens today, a National Trust property in North Wales. My wife noticed a short post with EV chargers . No mention on the NT app or website, no sign by them. They are shown on Plugshare but not Google or Electroverse. I've written to the NT to ask them to include EV chargers under 'Facilities'.

 

[mg4mc]

Our local NT (Quarry Bank Mill) has 3x type 2 charge points. They are free to use

 

[Grriff]

These are mentioned on the NT app but no details. Shown on Plugshare, noted as out of use, but not Google or Electroverse.

 

[mg4mc]

Ah, I don't know if they are working. We always walk there, I've just seen them in the car park.