Drink / Drive over the limit

[EVsince2016]

Acts of parliament for docks, railways & navigations are still in place unchanged by modern laws, as those modern laws exclude them.

The railway to Croydon still operates under the powers of the Croydon Canal Act in parts!

Until recently EVs could not have a slow speed sound due to an old law prohibiting blowing your whistle between 11pm and 7am!

 

[ozzz]

That’s awesome reading I had it a bit wrong York not London and I jest not I do practice with a bow actually a recurve bow a couple of times a week along with walking football.

 

[Alansurfer]

If the camper van is registered as a motorhome with a bed that meets the requirements (folding or permanent) then as long as you’re on a campsite or private land it’s ok but parked up at the side of the road can be an issue . Parking at the side of the road or car parks require you to follow the same drink drive law as every vehicle.

 

[Mack1410]

This is bollo***! Similarly a person can't be charged with shoplifting until they leave the store without paying, even if they have pocketed the item. A good lawyer would have police in court for wrongful arrest, compenstion inbound!

 

[johnb80]

This is bollo***! Similarly a person can't be charged with shoplifting until they leave the store without paying, even if they have pocketed the item. A good lawyer would have police in court for wrongful arrest, compenstion inbound!

Blackbelt Barrister is no lightweight on legal matters, he's only stating what the law is as written and how it is actually applied. I agree this seems ridiculous but it's seemingly one of the weird things in UK law, the law is an ass.

 

[Rolfe]

There are circumstances where the law sanctions behaviour that might cause harm before the actual harm happens. I remember when the animal welfare law was changed so that behaviour which was likely to cause suffering was criminalised, my business partner (who did some defence expert witness cases against the RSPCA) said it was outrageous. But I took the view that the law already criminalises dangerous driving. They don't have to wait until you actually cause a smash and maybe kill someone before they can take action against your behaviour. Conversely, animal welfare inspectors were having to stand around impotently watching animals in very unsatisfactory husbandry conditions until it could be shown that they were actually suffering. This led to some unseemly behaviour, with inspectors caught on audio apparently celebrating the fact that an animal was suffering. What they were celebrating was that they now believed they had sufficient cause to intervene. It was still necessary to prove that the husbandry was likely to lead to suffering, of course.

So I can see the logic that it's not always necessary to wait for the harm to happen. Dangerous driving is a very apt comparison here. But I question very much whether the law we're discussing comes into that category. The obvious potential for harm in driving dangerously justifies it being an offence before the actual harm has happened. The obvious potential for harm in keeping cattle in a filthy shed with insufficient food and sharp edges on the water trough also justifies it being an offence so that the authorities can step in before an animal actually starves or slices its leg open.

I just don't see that being asleep in your car, sozzled, with your keys in your pocket, reaches that threshold of justification. The behaviour is not dangerous in itself, and is not dangerous if it simply continues as it is, unlike dangerous driving or keeping an animal in unsuitable accommodation.

Extending the reach of the law to cover someone tucked up in bed in a campervan in a layby, or indeed in a sleeping bag on an airbed in the back of an estate car, is even more ridiculous. I wonder what loophole the law was actually intended to close in the first place?

 

[DavecUK]

We are moving towards "Minority Report". I remember the guy who had his thinking checked, the woman who was arrested or cautioned for praying inside her head. Sleeping in a motorhome after watching the footy with a few beers could/would lead to a prosecution for drunk in charge...in case you drive. The problem though is the offence they get you under is "drunk in charge" not drunk driving. A public place could be a car park, and theoretically prescribed caravan parking could in many circumstances be classed as a "public place"

Section 5 Road Traffic Act 1988 [‘RTA 1988’] - Driving or being in charge with alcohol concentration above prescribed limit​

Section 5 RTA 1988 sets out this offence and provides a defence.

A person who drives or attempts to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place or is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in their breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit, is guilty of an offence.

In relation to being in charge of a motor vehicle, a person is not guilty if they prove that the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of them driving the vehicle whilst the proportion of alcohol in their breath, blood or urine exceeded the prescribed limit.

 

[Rolfe]

In relation to being in charge of a motor vehicle, a person is not guilty if they prove that the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of them driving the vehicle whilst the proportion of alcohol in their breath, blood or urine exceeded the prescribed limit.

That's helpful, thanks. I would have thought that being tucked up in bed in your jammies would meet that requirement regardless of where the campervan was parked. I would also have thought that being in a sleeping bag on an airbed in the back of an estate car would be a defensible position. It's the difference between being obviously bedded down for the night, and in a position where you might decide to resume driving any minute if you thought your head had cleared a bit.

I still don't think it's a good law though. Proving that you're not likely to do something in the future isn't something I think the law should normally expect you to have to do.

 

[Alansurfer]

This is bollo***! Similarly a person can't be charged with shoplifting until they leave the store without paying, even if they have pocketed the item. A good lawyer would have police in court for wrongful arrest, compenstion inbound!

It’s more about responsibility- if you are parked up in a public place you may be required to move the vehicle at any time so the same rules apply to a camper as any motor vehicle, you wouldn’t want a big truck driver drinking even if they are camping out in the rig for several days. May seem unfair but not unreasonable to expect the vehicle driver to stay sober when in public places.

 

[DavecUK]

I still don't think it's a good law though. Proving that you're not likely to do something in the future isn't something I think the law should normally expect you to have to do.

I agree, because it's actually impossible to prove a negative. You can prove you didn't do something, but you can never prove you weren't going to do something in future.

The wording is quite specific "if they prove that the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood"

A logical impossibility

P.S. I should add that I don't support drinking and driving and believe the alcohol limit for driving should be 0%. I don't drink much at all, but if I had even a beer, I would not drive for 24 hours.

 

[Archev]

I agree, because it's actually impossible to prove a negative. You can prove you didn't do something, but you can never prove you weren't going to do something in future.

The wording is quite specific "if they prove that the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood"

A logical impossibility

P.S. I should add that I don't support drinking and driving and believe the alcohol limit for driving should be 0%. I don't drink much at all, but if I had even a beer, I would not drive for 24 hours.

Agree wholeheartedly

 

[Rolfe]

It all depends on what they mean by "likelihood". They didn't choose the word "possibility", presumably for a reason.

 

[ozzz]

If the camper van is registered as a motorhome with a bed that meets the requirements (folding or permanent) then as long as you’re on a campsite or private land it’s ok but parked up at the side of the road can be an issue . Parking at the side of the road or car parks require you to follow the same drink drive law as every vehicle.

No problem at road side in Australia if the vehicle is registered and u need rest under fatigue requirements rest u can but not in No parking or no over night stays signage.
Think about all the HGV and commercial vehicles with sleeping berth. U have to stop and rest to furfill driving hour requirements.

 

[Gomev]

Agree, how do you prove a negative ?

 

[salty]

I know it's the law, but, just can't get me head around, how they can possibly do you for, drink driving. If your not actually driving. All this because you might drive rubbish, is totally, utterly, absolute, Cobblers. ??

 

[JimD]

I know it's the law, but, just can't get me head around, how they can possibly do you for, drink driving. If your not actually driving. All this because you might drive rubbish, is totally, utterly, absolute, Cobblers. ??

The trick is they aren't doing you for drink driving. It would be drunk in charge, which is a separate offence. Like it or not, that's the law as it stands.

 

[siteguru]

I know it's the law, but, just can't get me head around, how they can possibly do you for, drink driving. If your not actually driving. All this because you might drive rubbish, is totally, utterly, absolute, Cobblers. ??

Because they're not - as previously explained, they'd do you for drunk in charge.

Edit: I posted just as Jim's post arrived.

 

[salty]

The trick is they aren't doing you for drink driving. It would be drunk in charge, which is a separate offence. Like it or not, that's the law as it stands.

Because they're not - as previously explained, they'd do you for drunk in charge.

Edit: I posted just as Jim's post arrived.

Yep, realise that, but it's still cobblers, that you can be done for just sitting there or asleep or whatever, but not actually moving. And nothings gonna change me mind about that. ?

 

[johnb80]

Yep, realise that, but it's still cobblers, that you can be done for just sitting there or asleep or whatever, but not actually moving. And nothings gonna change me mind about that. ?

Interesting test case , you volunteering to take a hit for uk drivers?

It seems mad to me too.

 

[maskull]

I think , whether or not the law's an ass , the solution is pretty straight forward . If you go out for the night don't drink or ,alternatively , don't take the car or keys .
If in a motorhome or campervan , park off the public highway preferably an accredited camp site