Electric vs Petrol vs PHEV Journey Cost

[Tangoed Man]

We are on a night tariff of 4.5p/kWh and day time 54p/kWh. Which might sound insane day but we have solar panels and battery storage. So full the batteries at 4.5p/kWh and the EV at night. So basically never use the day rate. If the government was at all serious they would make batteries cheaper or give an interest free loan or something. As shifting all use to night gives you real flexibility.

We recently did a 900 mile trip and had no choice but to use rapids and the 79p/kWh rates some charge is really hurting the economics. If it wasn't for the above I would say no point economically in getting an ev

It really boils my spuds to think that rapid charging costs me about 20p/mile to run my MG 4 but my full size diesel Mercedes E-class only ever costs me 10p/mile. Thankfully, I have a home charger. I feel sorry for people wanting an EV but for reasons of location or house type cannot have home charging.

 

[Lovemyev]

I just did a quick check around the energy companys in light of what you suggest:-

I am on a 2 year EDF fixed deal and the day rate is almost 40p/kwh on the day rate ( spitful ) but with a cheap 5 hour night rate of 4.5p/kwh.
The EDF rate standard variable tariff quoted above is 33.18p/kwh 24 hours a day, cheaper than my fix of course.
But my electricity usage shown on my bill is more than my day rate, so I am happy with that.

 

[johnb80]

It really boils my spuds to think that rapid charging costs me about 20p/mile to run my MG 4 but my full size diesel Mercedes E-class only ever costs me 10p/mile. Thankfully, I have a home charger. I feel sorry for people wanting an EV but for reasons of location or house type cannot have home charging.

How do you manage to get 68 mpg from it?

 

[tsedge]

How do you manage to get 68 mpg from it?

And what does it cost in maintenance? i presume that's just the fuel.

 

[Malcolm Anderson]

We often forget the many aspects to the REAL COST of fossil fuels. The Oil security wars for instance or how about the transportation from all parts of the world, those Huge Oil tankers or refineries enrgy use for instance. But we still carry on regardless, we don’t care about pollution, rivers, seas, even the very air we breathe, It is our children and their children who will really pay the costs of the environmental damage we are causing. Since 2015 our government has given nearly £80billion in subsidies to fossil fuel companies ( 1 million seconds is about 11 days, a billion seconds equals 31.8 years!) and then latest outrage of the Gas companies and their 900% increase in their Profits is unbelievable. We need to look after our children’s futures, a change is needed, I am trying to be part of that change, so I invested in Solar/battery/2 EVs and I am glad I did. There is no planet ‘B’ we must look after this one.

 

[Les burrows]

Malcolm I couldn’t agree more I like yourself have solar PV and 2 EVs no home battery as yet but looking into that, so you and I plus many others on this forum are doing their best to make this a better place to be and secure in the future for our children and hopefully their children.
The issue we have is making others come along the same road and then today the Uk government as announced further massive investment in off shore OIL and Gas see below from the BBC.
I don’t know when they are going to wake up but all this has to be stopped if we are going to have a planet ? to survive on.
Les

1. Rishi Sunak says approving more oil and gas licences is "entirely consistent" with reaching net zero by 2050
2. Sunak says even when net zero is reached, a quarter of UK energy needs will come from oil and gas
3. At least 100 new production licences will be issued in the next round this autumn
4. But issuing production licences does not mean production will take place in every case
5. The SNP warns that while energy security is important, the UK needs to consider "the looming climate catastrophe"
6. And Oxfam Scotland says drilling for more oil and gas in the North Sea is "short-sighted and selfish"
7. Downing Street also confirms millions of pounds for a new carbon capture scheme in north-east Scotland

 

[Malcolm Anderson]

Malcolm I couldn’t agree more I like yourself have solar PV and 2 EVs no home battery as yet but looking into that, so you and I plus many others on this forum are doing their best to make this a better place to be and secure in the future for our children and hopefully their children.
The issue we have is making others come along the same road and then today the Uk government as announced further massive investment in off shore OIL and Gas see below from the BBC.
I don’t know when they are going to wake up but all this has to be stopped if we are going to have a planet ? to survive on.
Les

1. Rishi Sunak says approving more oil and gas licences is "entirely consistent" with reaching net zero by 2050
2. Sunak says even when net zero is reached, a quarter of UK energy needs will come from oil and gas
3. At least 100 new production licences will be issued in the next round this autumn
4. But issuing production licences does not mean production will take place in every case
5. The SNP warns that while energy security is important, the UK needs to consider "the looming climate catastrophe"
6. And Oxfam Scotland says drilling for more oil and gas in the North Sea is "short-sighted and selfish"
7. Downing Street also confirms millions of pounds for a new carbon capture scheme in north-east Scotland

Thanks for the reply Les I understand that not everyone can change to an EV at the moment, we couldn’t supply enough new ones anyway, so your post is very relevant. A friend has a Merc hybrid he was admiring the wife’s Hyundai Ioniq he was complaining he only gets 16mls from his battery. The pressure of rising costs on almost everything makes it even harder for people to go EV, but the problems are increasing we have to change. A friend of mine has had to move home and he was shocked to see the electric costs, he now pays 88p kW day and 22p at night and he’s a pensioner. The Gas ‘rip off’ needs to be stopped so we can return to reasonable prices. I was thinking of updating my MG5 lr but it has charmed me, I really like it. So we decided to get a battery instead and keep our gen1, If I had the money I would have gone for the Tesla battery but I was quoted £13000 which was a bit to much. So we went for a German company called Solar Edge, we have been using their system and its been faultless and it meant everything synchronised easily. But even their 10kW batt was £10,000 fitted, they have some vids on u tube they have some nifty ideas. Just in case you had missed it EVM has just done a new vid on his latest battery system also he tried to see if he could get a decent EV for under £5,000 which I found interesting. Les, for future reference is there much of a difference in the energy consumption between your old MG5 gen1 and your new2?

 

[Les burrows]

Hi again Malcolm
So in answer to you question my MK1 MG5 was an SR with a claimed range of 214 miles and my new car now is the MG5 Trophy with a claimed range of 230-235 miles but what I can say is this the MK1 LR had a range of 250 miles if my memory is right, so my new car is already down by 15-20 miles in the official figures, it’s the same battery size and motor but the loss I believe is due to the bigger wheels 17 inch, over 16 inch, this I’m sure is very true because on the excite model they have kept the wheels at 16 inch and the range is 250 miles exactly the same as the MK1 5.

Now the other day I did a post on my currant trip for someone with a similar question it’s in the thread Called
Viewing the MG 5 EV facelifted Trophy long range #7 so take a peak at that.
Your friends Mercedes why anyone buys a hi bird its beyond me yes they had a place for a very short time in my book when only a few full EVs gen1 24kw leafs and early Zoe’s about a 100 mile range if your lucky, but today I do not see any point in them at all 15-40 miles on battery for most and still with an engine that needs petrol and oil and expensive services.
The other thing I don’t like never have, is you leave home on a cold morning on the battery great you drive a few miles hit the open road or M way put your toe down a bit and a stone cold engine has to fire up at 70 miles per hour as the battery depletes no good at all for the engine and the pollution levels.

I have watch I think about every video available on YT and others Tesla Powerwall fantastic bit of kit, my son has one on his solar edge PV set up and as you say today most battery’s are around £1000 per kWh I have had my solar PV 3.84 KWs around 13 years now and if it went dead tomorrow I would not hesitate in having it replace I have said my times the best investment I have ever made,
The wife says what about me then I reply the solar has been with me for 13 years paid me back the cost after around 6 and as paid me every day since I think, you my love I have had you for over 55 years and you still costing me money
LOL.
Your quite right something has to change and soon and then I have just watch the News tonight to see our prime minister as change is mind again and get drilling for more OIL and Gas are we wasting our time idiots the lot of them.
Les

 

[Lovemyev]

What do we think to this system as an alternative to the power wall ???.

 

[johnb80]

Malcolm I couldn’t agree more I like yourself have solar PV and 2 EVs no home battery as yet but looking into that, so you and I plus many others on this forum are doing their best to make this a better place to be and secure in the future for our children and hopefully their children.
The issue we have is making others come along the same road and then today the Uk government as announced further massive investment in off shore OIL and Gas see below from the BBC.
I don’t know when they are going to wake up but all this has to be stopped if we are going to have a planet ? to survive on.
Les

1. Rishi Sunak says approving more oil and gas licences is "entirely consistent" with reaching net zero by 2050
2. Sunak says even when net zero is reached, a quarter of UK energy needs will come from oil and gas
3. At least 100 new production licences will be issued in the next round this autumn
4. But issuing production licences does not mean production will take place in every case
5. The SNP warns that while energy security is important, the UK needs to consider "the looming climate catastrophe"
6. And Oxfam Scotland says drilling for more oil and gas in the North Sea is "short-sighted and selfish"
7. Downing Street also confirms millions of pounds for a new carbon capture scheme in north-east Scotland

Whats the alternative Les?

Consider if we are not self sufficient in energy we have to import gas and oil, that's expensive in monetary terms and pollution. By developing more of the oil and gas fields in the north sea, we reduce our imports, we reduce are carbon emissions from transportation of oil and gas. In the meantime we develop further Nuclear, Wind and Solar.
For me personally, I do believe in Global warning but I dont believe its all man made. Not so many years ago we had an ice age, the earth has warmed up since then and is continuing to do so. I havent seen any conclusive proof that the global warming is all man made.

 

[tsedge]

Whats the alternative Les?

Consider if we are not self sufficient in energy we have to import gas and oil, that's expensive in monetary terms and pollution. By developing more of the oil and gas fields in the north sea, we reduce our imports, we reduce are carbon emissions from transportation of oil and gas. In the meantime we develop further Nuclear, Wind and Solar.
For me personally, I do believe in Global warning but I dont believe its all man made. Not so many years ago we had an ice age, the earth has warmed up since then and is continuing to do so. I havent seen any conclusive proof that the global warming is all man made.

It is certainly true that a lot of our policies to reduce CO2 emissions have simply exported our emissions around the world to countries that have worse environmental standards and labour laws. A boon for them, which is nice, but it is a accounting fiction that our footprint has reduced. When you think of the heavy industry that has gone, no wonder we have lower local emissions, but we're just relying on foreign heavy industry plus the transport costs / environmental damage.

It would be nice to have more honesty and realism about the complexity of these issues rather than the simplistic messages that dominate (on both sides).

 

[johnb80]

It is certainly true that a lot of our policies to reduce CO2 emissions have simply exported our emissions around the world to countries that have worse environmental standards and labour laws. A boon for them, which is nice, but it is a accounting fiction that our footprint has reduced. When you think of the heavy industry that has gone, no wonder we have lower local emissions, but we're just relying on foreign heavy industry plus the transport costs / environmental damage.

It would be nice to have more honesty and realism about the complexity of these issues rather than the simplistic messages that dominate (on both sides).

But what is the alternative in the short term?

 

[tsedge]

But what is the alternative in the short term?

There is none, I believe Sunak is right about that.

 

[Les burrows]

Whats the alternative Les?

Consider if we are not self sufficient in energy we have to import gas and oil, that's expensive in monetary terms and pollution. By developing more of the oil and gas fields in the north sea, we reduce our imports, we reduce are carbon emissions from transportation of oil and gas. In the meantime we develop further Nuclear, Wind and Solar.
For me personally, I do believe in Global warning but I dont believe its all man made. Not so many years ago we had an ice age, the earth has warmed up since then and is continuing to do so. I havent seen any conclusive proof that the global warming is all man made.

Hi John I can see where your coming from but we need massive change across the world you can be assured Global warming is mainly man made, John the suns rays are getting stronger year on year there a figures to prove it and the atmosphere that protects us from it is being eroded by the Crap we are releasing into it again there are figures to prove, the fact that also we need to be energy secure this we know and what the government announced yesterday is going to be once again a short-term fix because the energy from oil and gas will not last forever, but the suns rays will always be there As long as we are on this planet. The wind will blow and the money would be far better, put towards improving and building our renewables infrastructure.
In the same newscast yesterday when it was announced that the government was allowing these licenses for more of them to be drilled, They also said that Iceland had announced yesterday they and now 100% self-sufficient in energy. They are an island like us so why can’t we do the same Norway years in front of us yes I know they have their Hydro plants but some 35 to 40 years ago. I remember we were trialling a wave machine as a generator in the Bristol Channel that could have given us lots of power at anytime day or night and several more around our shores could have made our country the same as Iceland. dragging more oil and gas out of the seas John to burn to generate electricity is going to do nothing to improve the climate renewables are the way forward and the only way, even China has seen this and are spending millions on renewables.
As for the Ice age John that was thousands of years ago and as took many many years to have enough impact to affect us, the warming levels that we have now have accelerated quickly in comparison of time and it is that that is destroying what’s left of the Ice. Gas and oil are finished and we need to generate electricity without them and it can be done.
Les

 

[tsedge]

Hi John I can see where your coming from but we need massive change across the world you can be assured Global warming is mainly man made, John the suns rays are getting stronger year on year there a figures to prove it and the atmosphere that protects us from it is being eroded by the Crap we are releasing into it again there are figures to prove, the fact that also we need to be energy secure this we know and what the government announced yesterday is going to be once again a short-term fix because the energy from oil and gas will not last forever, but the suns rays will always be there As long as we are on this planet. The wind will blow and the money would be far better, put towards improving and building our renewables infrastructure.
In the same newscast yesterday when it was announced that the government was allowing these licenses for more of them to be drilled, They also said that Iceland had announced yesterday they and now 100% self-sufficient in energy. They are an island like us so why can’t we do the same Norway years in front of us yes I know they have their Hydro plants but some 35 to 40 years ago. I remember we were trialling a wave machine as a generator in the Bristol Channel that could have given us lots of power at anytime day or night and several more around our shores could have made our country the same as Iceland. dragging more oil and gas out of the seas John to burn to generate electricity is going to do nothing to improve the climate renewables are the way forward and the only way, even China has seen this and are spending millions on renewables.
As for the Ice age John that was thousands of years ago and as took many many years to have enough impact to affect us, the warming levels that we have now have accelerated quickly in comparison of time and it is that that is destroying what’s left of the Ice. Gas and oil are finished and we need to generate electricity without them and it can be done.
Les

I think the point is we could become energy independent without fossil fuels but it would take decades of heavy investment to achieve that and in the meantime we will be using a lot of oil and gas whether we like it or not, so why not exploit what we have (which also increases short term energy security).

Norway does exactly this. They don't need their oil and gas but they heavily exploit in order to sell to others, drive exports and increase their sovereign wealth fund which benefits the whole community.

I don't think it matters what people believe about global warming, this isn't going to change fast under any circumstances.

 

[Robf]

The transition to clean energy still has to be managed and the situation with Russia has highlighted just what can go wrong. Its not so much the oil side of things but gas is a problem for us and it does make sense to manage this domestically if we can. Whether we should be exporting more oil into the markets is another question, as a country we could certainly point to the fact that other countries will just capitalise on the situation.

 

[Les burrows]

I think the point is we could become energy independent without fossil fuels but it would take decades of heavy investment to achieve that and in the meantime we will be using a lot of oil and gas whether we like it or not, so why not exploit what we have (which also increases short term energy security).

Norway does exactly this. They don't need their oil and gas but they heavily exploit in order to sell to others, drive exports and increase their sovereign wealth fund which benefits the whole community.

I don't think it matters what people believe about global warming, this isn't going to change fast under any circumstances.

Hi tsedge yesterday licenses where granted to drill more fossil fuels wells this is not going to happen over a short time period so is not going to be a short term fix also we have no idea in truth how long these oil and gas supplies will last it just an educated guess and when we have used it all up we will be back where we came from needing to generate electricity from somewhere for me it’s a waste of time and money I agree lets make use of what we have that’s wind solar and waves all around this island this is just what Iceland as done.
And as well as looking at now we must also look to the future gas and oil will not lest for ever.
Les

 

[Lovemyev]

Strangely enough, we export a lot of our gas, purely because we lack the necessary storage facilities, then we buy it back at the time of need.
Now it appears we intend to produce more ( to export ) from a limited supply of this commodity.
Also we are still removing coal from a massive open cast mine that was ordered to close last year.

 

[johnb80]

Strangely enough, we export a lot of our gas, purely because we lack the necessary storage facilities, then we buy it back at the time of need.
Now it appears we intend to produce more ( to export ) from a limited supply of this commodity.
Also we are still removing coal from a massive open cast mine that was ordered to close last year.

Oddly the ONS say:

The UK imported £19.6 billion of gas in 2021; a notable increase of 312% from £4.8 billion in 2020. The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020.

The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions. Domestic renewable energy production was low in 2021 because of less favourable weather conditions, resulting in higher gas demand for electricity generation. Additionally, higher gas demand in Asia as part of a shift away from dirtier fuels such as coal, supply constraints and lower than usual gas storage levels in Europe have also pushed prices up.

The UK imports around 50% of its gas from the international market and most homes in England and Wales are heated by mains gas supply. Gas is also used to fuel around a third of the UK's electricity generation, so rising gas prices will usually lead to rising electricity prices.

Norway is typically the UK's largest gas supplier. In 2021, the UK imported £14.5 billion of gas from Norway, which accounted for 77% of all gas imports (Figure 3). Other countries the UK imports gas from include Qatar, the United States and Russia. Almost half of the UK's gas exports in 2021 were to Ireland (47.2%), and the Netherlands was also a large export partner (28.2%).

 

[Lovemyev]

We export when we SHOULD be storing, but we lack the facilities to do so, therefore we are forced to export.