Heat Pumps

[tsedge]

I remember spending a month in Exeter at Easter 1975. "No, it never snows in Devon" they said when I arrived. About a week later I was trudging through the stuff to get to my work experience placement. Like your photo, it wasn't much of a covering, but you'd think the sky had fallen!

I grew up in Exeter. It is very rare. I can remember only 2 or 3 winters when there was enough snow to get the tea trays out and slide down the hills at the university (high ground).

It is even rarer here in Torbay thanks to the microclimate. But it does happen. Instant panic and chaos.

 

[Rolfe]

We cope. It happens often enough that we're geared up for it, and we know what to do. And that's up to a couple of feet, and sub-zero temperatures that go on for weeks sometimes. -20C isn't that unusual here.

This was taken at a wedding that went ahead in the middle of a fairly bad spell!

Sorry, bit of a digression again, but I was just meaning that just because the technology copes on the odd day or two below zero in Cornwall doesn't necessarily prove that it'll cope in Scotland.

 

[Deleted member 10041]

It copes in Scandinavia and their winters are way worse than here

Do Heat Pumps Work in Cold Weather?​

Written byJosh Jackman
Updated on26 January 2023
✔ Air source heat pumps work at temperatures as low as -25°C
✔ Heat pumps are still three times more efficient than boilers when it’s below 0°C

 

[Rolfe]

I think we've been round this before on the previous page. The insulation standards in Scandinavia are much higher than they are here. It's not a good situation, but the fact is that an enormous amount of work would be needed to get insulation up to standard in order for the situation to be comparable, and there are still a lot of homes where they couldn't be installed.

I'm not an expert and I don't really have a dog in this fight, but a change of this magnitude needs to be planned out over a longer time-scale than is currently envisaged. We've neglected to impose decent insulation standards for homes since, like, forever. People have been renewing their gas and oil boilers up to maybe last year with no warning that they should be thinking about doing anything else, now suddenly it's going to be illegal to sell your home if it has a gas boiler in two years?

 

[Deleted member 10041]

That article relates to the UK, they work fine and there are other options Robert Lewellyn from the fully charged show has a Tepeo ZEB, electric boiler and he raves about that in a video I watched, swapped lpg boiler for it no extra pipework or replacement radiators, a member here mentioned having one earlier.

 

[Rolfe]

Well, they've installed them in some houses near here, so we'll see how they get on. But these are new houses and I presume designed around that method of heating, with the insulation to a high enough standard.

It's the compulsory retrofitting them into houses that weren't designed for them, with an unrealistic deadline, and forcing people to scrap new installations they had no idea were going to be made illegal when they bought them only a year or two ago that's the issue.

 

[tsedge]

Heat Pumps are a great technology, they are completely proven and reliable and in use for decades elsewhere.

That isn't the issue. The issue is how much of the UK housing stock is suitable for heat pumps, given that successful heat pump installations depend on significant insulation, larger radiators and pipework (to handle the lower temperatures) and space to put the unit.

It can certainly be retrofitted but at a cost and with disruption often requiring internal redecoration. That's fine for some but not for all.

We rebuilt our house completely between 2015-2018 before most of these government decisions were taken. A simple gas boiler and conventional radiator system was by far the best option at the time. We did not spend that money to then have to replace the whole system a few years later, forget it.

 

[Grriff]

My gas engineer said that very good insulation is essential if we want to install a heat pump.

 

[Rolfe]

We rebuilt our house completely between 2015-2018 before most of these government decisions were taken. A simple gas boiler and conventional radiator system was by far the best option at the time. We did not spend that money to then have to replace the whole system a few years later, forget it.

My oil-fired boiler broke down (after 22 years in operation) in 2019. I was given some options if I wanted to change the heating method - LPG, combi-boiler, various things. It was obvious that a simple like-for-like replacement of the existing boiler with a modern, more efficient one was the sensible course of action. Nobody even said the words "heat pump". I think I spent about £3,500 on the new boiler, which is definitely using a lot less oil

Then in January this year my oil tank failed, causing damage to the new boiler. The oil tank had to be replaced and the boiler repaired. Goodbye to another £3,200. Even then, the words "heat pump" were scarcely on everyone's lips. Now, suddenly, they're talking about making it illegal for me to sell my house unless I scrap all that and completely re-fit the building with heat pump technology, in only two years time?

Revolutions have started over less.

 

[Rolfe]

My gas engineer said that very good insulation is essential if we want to install a heat pump.

If every house was insulated to that standard the country would cut its usage of fossil fuels drastically even if they went right on using the heating systems they already have.

 

[tsedge]

This is the irony around Insulate Britain - their methods make them the target of ridicule, but their cause is absolutely a good one.

Much of the net zero agenda will not happen once it starts to significantly affect people's lives - then it will be diluted and spread out over a more reasonable and realistic time frame. Revolution indeed.

 

[Rolfe]

I give you the recent fiasco over the proposed bottle deposit return scheme in Scotland. Millions were wasted trying to impose an absolutely daft idea, and in the end they had to back off. This one will go the same way.

I am not going to be in the same boat as the business owners who spent a fortune gearing up for that scheme.

 

[tsedge]

The truth about heat pumps and the power needed to run them

Climate editor Justin Rowlatt on the challenge of how to warm the UK's homes - but not the planet.

www.bbc.com

 

[johnb80]

I think we've been round this before on the previous page. The insulation standards in Scandinavia are much higher than they are here. It's not a good situation, but the fact is that an enormous amount of work would be needed to get insulation up to standard in order for the situation to be comparable, and there are still a lot of homes where they couldn't be installed.

A lot of people seem to be blinded by insulation with regard to heatpumps. No matter what source of heating you use, the heating system needs to replace heat that is lost via walls, windows, doors, roof etc. Having established that fact, your home may use x KWh of energy to maintain a steady temperature. Now consider the cost that energy when gained from oil / gas / resistive electric / heatpump. A heatpump will give an average of 3 kW of heat for an energy input of 1 kW. If your energy source and boiler efficiency ends up with energy cost less than 1/3 the cost of electricity (using off peak too) then it will be more expensive to run a heatpump.

I'm not an expert and I don't really have a dog in this fight, but a change of this magnitude needs to be planned out over a longer time-scale than is currently envisaged. We've neglected to impose decent insulation standards for homes since, like, forever. People have been renewing their gas and oil boilers up to maybe last year with no warning that they should be thinking about doing anything else, now suddenly it's going to be illegal to sell your home if it has a gas boiler in two years?

I didnt know that was the case, are you sure?

 

[tsedge]

A lot of people seem to be blinded by insulation with regard to heatpumps. No matter what source of heating you use, the heating system needs to replace heat that is lost via walls, windows, doors, roof etc. Having established that fact, your home may use x KWh of energy to maintain a steady temperature. Now consider the cost that energy when gained from oil / gas / resistive electric / heatpump. A heatpump will give an average of 3 kW of heat for an energy input of 1 kW. If your energy source and boiler efficiency ends up with energy cost less than 1/3 the cost of electricity (using off peak too) then it will be more expensive to run a heatpump.


I didnt know that was the case, are you sure?

John, the BBC article is claiming that a heatpump costs as much to run as a gas boiler (with good insulation), so a poorly insulated house would cost more.

Do you have any experience or knowledge to contradict this?

(Obviously I am talking without solar / battery)

 

[Robf]

John, the BBC article is claiming that a heatpump costs as much to run as a gas boiler (with good insulation), so a poorly insulated house would cost more.

Do you have any experience or knowledge to contradict this?

(Obviously I am talking without solar / battery)

I had a heat pump as part of an air system. Although it is always stated that they work in low temps, I would advise to check efficiency below 6c as it can drop off rapidly (system can also heat cycle to melt any ice buid up which also affects efficiency). Could work out ok if you had battery capacity and something like octopus Go. Solar doesnt really help as you require heating in winter at lowest (if any) solar input.
As stated above it is important that you do an ACCURATE assesment of building heating requirements and loss figures to get a clear understanding if it would meet your needs.

 

[tsedge]

John, the BBC article is claiming that a heatpump costs as much to run as a gas boiler (with good insulation), so a poorly insulated house would cost more.

Do you have any experience or knowledge to contradict this?

(Obviously I am talking without solar / battery)

Ah... I have re-read what you said and I think you are explaning how to work out the answer to my question. Thanks.

 

[Ian Key]

now suddenly it's going to be illegal to sell your home if it has a gas boiler in two years?

No. You won't be able to buy a new gas boiler in two years time.

 

[Gadget Geek]

I had a heat pump as part of an air system. Although it is always stated that they work in low temps, I would advise to check efficiency below 6c as it can drop off rapidly (system can also heat cycle to melt any ice buid up which also affects efficiency). Could work out ok if you had battery capacity and something like octopus Go. Solar doesnt really help as you require heating in winter at lowest (if any) solar input.
As stated above it is important that you do an ACCURATE assesment of building heating requirements and loss figures to get a clear understanding if it would meet your needs.

There are a number of heat loss calculators you can use on-line to get a good estimate;

BTU Calculator | Radiator Calculator | Simple Heat Calculator

Use the BestHeating BTU calculator to work out the heat requirements of your room & find a choice of radiators & towel rails to heat your home comfortably

www.bestheating.com

Obviously you will need an accurate room by room calculation to get an accurate value for heat pump output and radiator sizes, but this gives you a ball park figure.

 

[Gadget Geek]

No. You won't be able to buy a new gas boiler in two years time.

I wonder if the Daily Fail will start campaigning about that?