Honda + Nissan

[5teep]

Watched the latest Electrifying video on Youtube, apparently there's a 'rumour' that Honda and Nissan are going to merge. Neither company doing very well at the moment and both well behind the time with their EV range. Could this be the start of the 'World Auto Manufacturing Conglomerate'? A bit like UK car dealers, all the indies bought up until there's only 2 or 3 huge ones.

 

[Everest]

Was also reported on BBC a few days ago

Japanese car makers Honda and Nissan hold merger talks

In March, the two Japanese car makers agreed to explore a strategic partnership for electric vehicles.

www.bbc.co.uk

It does seem that the Japanese are lagging others with EV's, despite the Leaf's early appearance.

from ev-database...
Nissan have 2 EV's
Excluding vans, Toyota has 1
Honda has 1
Mazda has 1
Subaru has 1
Mitsubishi has none

Pretty dire really.

 

[Coulomb]

Nissan have 2 EV's
...
Mitsubishi has none

That must be excluding "archived" data on older models. Mitsubishi and Nissan were the first with EVs; the iMiEV is still selling in Japan, I believe. Nissan has Leaf, e-NV200, and the Ariya.

Pathetic offerings, to be sure. And Toyota have 25 years experience with electric motors, though not with large batteries.

In a few years, we might have a handful of global companies, plus fifty of the now two hundred Chinese EV makers. Or maybe more like ten. It's going to be a rough ride, especially for Japan and Germany. The pain has already started in Germany, with Mercedes and BMW wanting to lay off many thousands of workers, and to close several plants. The USA will also go through tremendous turmoil.

[ Edit: 15 years experience -> 25 years experience. ]

 

[Everest]

That must be excluding "archived" data on older models. Mitsubishi and Nissan were the first with EVs; the iMiEV is still selling in Japan, I believe. Nissan has Leaf, e-NV200, and the Ariya.

Yes - I looked at currently available ones in Europe. e-NV200 was discontinued in Dec 2021 and the iMiEV in 2018.

 

[5teep]

Yes - I looked at currently available ones in Europe. e-NV200 was discontinued in Dec 2021 and the iMiEV in 2018.

The Leaf is all but discontinued now as well.

 

[Coulomb]

e-NV200 was discontinued in Dec 2021

Ouch! I think of the e-NV200 as available in Australia, as I see a few of them about, but they must all be Japanese imports.

 

[Everest]

maybe it was discontinued in Europe sooner than down-under?

 

[Montego]

The plans for a new Micra, based on the Renault 5, are reported to be well advanced. Similarly the Leaf and Juke replacement EVs have been alluded to. It will take a while to untangle the Renault/Nissan tie up. Pity as the photos of the seats in the R5 would discourage me.
As for Honda the E's range was discouraging and the dashboard looked like my old Maxi!

 

[Coulomb]

The plans for a new Micra, based on the Renault 5, are reported to be well advanced.

The Nissan Ariya seems to have had a difficult birth. It was announced in 2020, then took two years to be delivered. Perhaps part of that was due to the Covid chip shortage.

Nissan just doesn't seem to be very agile. I wonder how different things would have been for them if they hadn't hounded out CEO Carlos Ghosn.

maybe it [ e-NV200 ] was discontinued in Europe sooner than down-under?

It was never released for Australia. Having owned and liked a Leaf, and having seen a few e-NV200s about, I vaguely considered one for a while. But it never progressed beyond 40 kWh, and that just doesn't cut it any more.

 

[Gadget Geek]

Could this be the start of the 'World Auto Manufacturing Conglomerate'? A bit like UK car dealers, all the indies bought up until there's only 2 or 3 huge ones.

It started a while back when Stellantis was formed by merging Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS, Fiat, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opel, Peugeot, Ram Trucks, and Vauxhall.

 

[Bam Bam]

Yes it does have a whiff of the government brokered mergers various British brands in the 1950s and 60s to keep the industry going (Austin · Austin-Healey · Jaguar · MG · Morris · Princess · Riley · Rover · Triumph · Vanden Plas · Wolseley etc.)

 

[GranTurismoEra]

Are they still blaming Chinese competition? Nissan did nothing to grow from Leaf or expand their electric vehicle line. Why didn't they electrify Infiniti? The Q60 and Q50 models should have been electric by 2017. The Leaf should have been made into a 4 door saloon before the model S was announced. They are architects of their own downfall.

Long term model line ups, not enough updates, no diversification. As for Honda they cancelled the Honda E coupe. Hatchback range was bad. They werent fully onboard with EV. They stuck to hybrids.

They should probably stick to 70% iCE hybrids for export and a couple of nice looking EVs. I dont think they can compete with China on EV alone.

 

[Brucey7]

It’s desperation, they are both facing extinction. I agree with Carlos Ghosn’s analysis, there is no synergy, only similar products in similar markets and a complete lack of EV strategy.

They are both going the way of Kodak. So are Mitsubishi and unless a change of strategy, in the longer-term, Toyota.

 

[davz]

Was also reported on BBC a few days ago

Japanese car makers Honda and Nissan hold merger talks

In March, the two Japanese car makers agreed to explore a strategic partnership for electric vehicles.

www.bbc.co.uk

It does seem that the Japanese are lagging others with EV's, despite the Leaf's early appearance.

from ev-database...
Nissan have 2 EV's
Excluding vans, Toyota has 1
Honda has 1
Mazda has 1
Subaru has 1
Mitsubishi has none

Pretty dire really.

Excluding vans, Toyota has 3 bev’s and a hydrogen powered saloon.

Are they still blaming Chinese competition? Nissan did nothing to grow from Leaf or expand their electric vehicle line. Why didn't they electrify Infiniti? The Q60 and Q50 models should have been electric by 2017. The Leaf should have been made into a 4 door saloon before the model S was announced. They are architects of their own downfall.

Long term model line ups, not enough updates, no diversification. As for Honda they cancelled the Honda E coupe. Hatchback range was bad. They werent fully onboard with EV. They stuck to hybrids.

They should probably stick to 70% iCE hybrids for export and a couple of nice looking EVs. I dont think they can compete with China on EV alone.

No one can compete with China when the playing fields aren’t level. The workers are paid a third of workers in the west and then the Chinese government hugely subsidises the manufacturers, hence why the eu is imposing high levels of duty, something the uk govt needs to do.

That must be excluding "archived" data on older models. Mitsubishi and Nissan were the first with EVs; the iMiEV is still selling in Japan, I believe. Nissan has Leaf, e-NV200, and the Ariya.

Pathetic offerings, to be sure. And Toyota have 25 years experience with electric motors, though not with large batteries.

In a few years, we might have a handful of global companies, plus fifty of the now two hundred Chinese EV makers. Or maybe more like ten. It's going to be a rough ride, especially for Japan and Germany. The pain has already started in Germany, with Mercedes and BMW wanting to lay off many thousands of workers, and to close several plants. The USA will also go through tremendous turmoil.

[ Edit: 15 years experience -> 25 years experience. ]

I’m not sure where you got your info from but there has been zero redundancies and non planned, there has been no factory closures and non planned. The factory at leipzig has temporarily shut down whilst the lines are converted to manufacturing the ev countryman. BMW is also gearing up to produce hydrogen cars as in the eu this is seen as a viable mode of transportation unlike in the uk where the govt can’t rub two brain cells together let alone create a logical policy for transport

Was also reported on BBC a few days ago

Japanese car makers Honda and Nissan hold merger talks

In March, the two Japanese car makers agreed to explore a strategic partnership for electric vehicles.

www.bbc.co.uk

It does seem that the Japanese are lagging others with EV's, despite the Leaf's early appearance.

from ev-database...
Nissan have 2 EV's
Excluding vans, Toyota has 1
Honda has 1
Mazda has 1
Subaru has 1
Mitsubishi has none

Pretty dire really.

I disagree that it’s “pretty dire” one has to consider the global car market and then produce a line up that meets the needs of its consumers and not to beholden to a govt (uk) that doesn’t know its head from its ar*e. Considering that in 2024 88 million cars were produced, 17 million or just 20% were ev or plugin hybrid, 10 million sold in China leaving only 7 million in the western world. If you were in charge of a major manufacturer where would you put the emphasis of design and manufacturing…..all your cars for possible grab of 17 million competing with a multitude of heavily subsidised cheap Chinese manufacturers or a market of 71 million? The transition to full ev is being put back by all major manufacturers and the reason being is lack of demand, I would argue the Japanese are on the ball.

 

[siteguru]

Demand for BEVs is growing (globally) year on year.

 

[5teep]

I disagree that it’s “pretty dire” one has to consider the global car market and then produce a line up that meets the needs of its consumers and not to beholden to a govt (uk) that doesn’t know its head from its ar*e. Considering that in 2024 88 million cars were produced, 17 million or just 20% were ev or plugin hybrid, 10 million sold in China leaving only 7 million in the western world. If you were in charge of a major manufacturer where would you put the emphasis of design and manufacturing…..all your cars for possible grab of 17 million competing with a multitude of heavily subsidised cheap Chinese manufacturers or a market of 71 million? The transition to full ev is being put back by all major manufacturers and the reason being is lack of demand, I would argue the Japanese are on the ball.

hmmm, thinking that after just 15? years of EV car making the fact that they make up 20% of total world manufacturing is pretty awesome.

 

[GranTurismoEra]

No one can compete with China when the playing fields aren’t level. The workers are paid a third of workers in the west and then the Chinese government hugely subsidises the manufacturers, hence why the eu is imposing high levels of duty, something the uk govt needs to do.

UK doesn't need to do anything. Its up to YOUR government to support local businesses and grow the economy. It is no one elses responsibility. Ford and co all got subsidies from government i dont see any complaints emanating from US about that just pure hypocrisy. UK government know theyll make tax money off Chinese products and can create a good trade partnership with China. Maybe some British companies that havent been ruined by America Inc could find China's 600+ million market useful for their products too.

In terms of pay youre comparing apples to oranges. Cost of living in China is significantly cheaper than UK and West. The pay would reflect accordingly. Many expats are doing business hence higher pay than locals.

So what I get paid $80,000+ per year. Means sweet FA when everything is expensive in UK. Chinas youth want to work our youth are disillusioned in comparison. Its easy to point the finger at a government that has to manage 1.4 billion people. UK government is only responsible for 70 million people yet we have 11 million idlers.....

Businesses like Tesla purposely avoid the UK for manufacturing but hire skeleton teams to sell their cars. because labour costs are more expensive. Why would I produce vehicles in the UK at £11 per head when ill get it done in China for £4 a head and not to mention theyll actually turn up to work and do the job. Not 5 million fag breaks, calling in sick and still collecting a higher wage. Makes no sense. West can cry all they want, but theres a reason UK and US are stagnating while pointing the finger at others.

 

[Gadget Geek]

Talking of apples to oranges comparisons, you can't compare the UK workforce with China's. The UK has limited forced labour called Community Payback, which is a punishment for crime. In China, forced labour is common if you happen to be an ethnic minority or show any opposition to the government.

China: 83 major brands implicated in report on forced labour of ethnic minorities from Xinjiang assigned to factories across provinces; Includes company responses - Business & Human Rights Resource Centre

www.business-humanrights.org

This is how China competes in the global markets, and world leaders turn a blind eye so as not to miss out on a lucrative trade deal.

 

[Caramaddy]

Worth watching The Electric Viking on YouTube. His analysis is interesting.

 

[turntoport]

Well the H₂ Mirai is selling well. (Not, unsurprisingly). Honda were, with the 'e' (imo, I owned one for a year), well ahead of all the rest, except for the inexplicable and ill-considered decision to put a small battery in it; a classic example of board/gaffer hubris overruling customer demand. So, rather than address the issue, their next step was to abandon an otherwise brilliant concept car and follow the herd with a direly average and expensive SUV.
So the western auto world (even Toyota are a joke) has been completely outflanked by Chintech: unsurprising given the laziness and arrogance of their marketing departments. Musk is likely to be the last (western) man standing - a shame, given his megalomaniacal desire to be lord of the planet.
Crikey.