MG4 Intelligent battery heating on SE?

[Rolfe]

Interesting. I presume they supply the feature for a reason though. I mean, they can't even supply a working USB player, but they give us this for no benefit? Doesn't compute.

 

[MG4London]

Tap on the battery tile on the home screen, tap on the Energy Consumption tab and the battery heating toggle should be there. (From memory).

Done that now what? Can you actually turn it in?

 

[MoDolph]

I really don't know how we're supposed to use battery heating. I presume it's provided for a reason.

I've been looking for an answer to this for the past few days and have been testing how it works but there is still some way to go.

When I turned it on whilst running some errands around town it behaved as follows:

So it seems to be trying to heat the battery to 20 °C and it took approximately 30 mins to raise the temperature by 10 °C. The heater seemed to consume ~3 kW so it used ~1.5 kWh (3% SE) for the 10 °C increase.

Unfortunately, the start of the drop in inlet temperature roughly coincides with when I got out of the car at the local rubbish tip. I didn't shut the car down or lock it but maybe it would have continued heating should I not have got out.

I'm currently pre-heating the battery whilst it's on charge at work so hopefully I can see what temperature it heats to when doing that and how long it takes to cool down.

As to why you would use it there are a few reasons but I'm struggling to calculate the exact times when it would be beneficial.

Pre-heating helps to; increase the amount of energy that can be delivered by the battery, increase the power output/input capability into the battery and reduce the extra degradation seen at low temperatures.

I've found a useful paper investigating pre-heating of LFP batteries in a bus with some real world testing (attached). This graph shows that at -10 °C the battery will lose ~13% of it's capacity compared with 20 °C. If this is true and my data above is correct then you might be able to gain ~4% extra range by pre-heating using the battery before a trip where you plan to use 100% of the battery. Probably not worth it. If you can pre-heat using power from the grid instead then it could be very useful.

The real world testing of the bus was interesting:

By pre-heating by 12 °C they saw a 6% improvement in energy consumption and a 35% reduction in degradation.

 

[siteguru]

Done that now what? Can you actually turn it in?

Yes you can. Make sure the car is in the READY state and then tap on the slider for Intelligent Battery Heating - that should turn it on (if it's off) or off (if it's on).

 

[Rolfe]

I've been looking for an answer to this for the past few days and have been testing how it works but there is still some way to go.

When I turned it on whilst running some errands around town it behaved as follows:
View attachment 21443
So it seems to be trying to heat the battery to 20 °C and it took approximately 30 mins to raise the temperature by 10 °C. The heater seemed to consume ~3 kW so it used ~1.5 kWh (3% SE) for the 10 °C increase.

Unfortunately, the start of the drop in inlet temperature roughly coincides with when I got out of the car at the local rubbish tip. I didn't shut the car down or lock it but maybe it would have continued heating should I not have got out.

I'm currently pre-heating the battery whilst it's on charge at work so hopefully I can see what temperature it heats to when doing that and how long it takes to cool down.

As to why you would use it there are a few reasons but I'm struggling to calculate the exact times when it would be beneficial.

Pre-heating helps to; increase the amount of energy that can be delivered by the battery, increase the power output/input capability into the battery and reduce the extra degradation seen at low temperatures.

I've found a useful paper investigating pre-heating of LFP batteries in a bus with some real world testing (attached). This graph shows that at -10 °C the battery will lose ~13% of it's capacity compared with 20 °C. If this is true and my data above is correct then you might be able to gain ~4% extra range by pre-heating using the battery before a trip where you plan to use 100% of the battery. Probably not worth it. If you can pre-heat using power from the grid instead then it could be very useful.

View attachment 21444

The real world testing of the bus was interesting:

View attachment 21445

By pre-heating by 12 °C they saw a 6% improvement in energy consumption and a 35% reduction in degradation.

That's brilliant, thanks.

 

[MGFour]

I've been looking for an answer to this for the past few days and have been testing how it works but there is still some way to go.

When I turned it on whilst running some errands around town it behaved as follows:
View attachment 21443
So it seems to be trying to heat the battery to 20 °C and it took approximately 30 mins to raise the temperature by 10 °C. The heater seemed to consume ~3 kW so it used ~1.5 kWh (3% SE) for the 10 °C increase.

Unfortunately, the start of the drop in inlet temperature roughly coincides with when I got out of the car at the local rubbish tip. I didn't shut the car down or lock it but maybe it would have continued heating should I not have got out.

I'm currently pre-heating the battery whilst it's on charge at work so hopefully I can see what temperature it heats to when doing that and how long it takes to cool down.

As to why you would use it there are a few reasons but I'm struggling to calculate the exact times when it would be beneficial.

Pre-heating helps to; increase the amount of energy that can be delivered by the battery, increase the power output/input capability into the battery and reduce the extra degradation seen at low temperatures.

I've found a useful paper investigating pre-heating of LFP batteries in a bus with some real world testing (attached). This graph shows that at -10 °C the battery will lose ~13% of it's capacity compared with 20 °C. If this is true and my data above is correct then you might be able to gain ~4% extra range by pre-heating using the battery before a trip where you plan to use 100% of the battery. Probably not worth it. If you can pre-heat using power from the grid instead then it could be very useful.

View attachment 21444

The real world testing of the bus was interesting:

View attachment 21445

By pre-heating by 12 °C they saw a 6% improvement in energy consumption and a 35% reduction in degradation.

Good research, I'd say its not worth it personally for UK climate.

Question - Does the 4% poss gain if using 100% of battery take into account that the battery will naturally heat up while being used anyway? If not the 4% could be less.

 

[MoDolph]

Good research, I'd say its not worth it personally for UK climate.

Question - Does the 4% poss gain if using 100% of battery take into account that the battery will naturally heat up while being used anyway? If not the 4% could be less.

No it doesn't and yes it could.

I'd say that it is basically pointless to use the battery to heat itself to get more range in the uk but it would be nice to have enough information to know for sure.

 

[meincranbourne]

My MG4 Excite 64 is asking for the intelligent heating to be turned on… it’s flame 33 celcius at the moment WTF how hot does the battery want to be? Any ideas, is it suffering heat exhaustion and suffering? Very strange what do you guys think?

 

[siteguru]

I believe @Rolfe has seen that before in hot (for us here) weather. Just select No (or whatever) and check the box to not ask again/remember the setting.

 

[Mark Hewitt]

If my Boxing Day plans come to fruition, I should arrive at my host's house at a fairly low SoC. I plan to decant my passengers, then immediately bugger off to a charging station which is barely six miles away to fill up. Seems like a plan to turn on battery heating when I set off for the charging station, assuming I can figure out how to do it, as I want to spend as little time charging as I can, so as to get back to the socialising.

I do want to set off back with a full battery, so the rest of the plan is to plug in the granny charger at my host's house, and hopefully get the LFP to 100% and balance while we're eating roast beef and Yorkshire pud and playing silly party games. Given that I expect to stay there about five hours (from my post-charge arrival) I need to be at a fairly high SoC to begin with, probably going to over 90% on the ultra-rapid. So the faster I can get there the better. I will report back if it happens.

I realise this is nearly a year ago now; but how did it work out?

 

[Rolfe]

I realise this is nearly a year ago now; but how did it work out?

Trip was cancelled because someone had to be taken to the airport that day.

I believe @Rolfe has seen that before in hot (for us here) weather. Just select No (or whatever) and check the box to not ask again/remember the setting.

Yes. It's weird. Just tell it to go away.

 

[MGFour]

My MG4 Excite 64 is asking for the intelligent heating to be turned on… it’s flame 33 celcius at the moment WTF how hot does the battery want to be? Any ideas, is it suffering heat exhaustion and suffering? Very strange what do you guys think?

I would imagine the battery isn't in its optimum temp range and although its call intelligent battery heating it will also intelligently cool to optimum temp if selected

 

[ReintjeWA]

I’ve always left mine on, if it’s only half intelligent it won’t heat anyway, and I’ve not noticed any negative effects on range (presumably because it never heats the battery)

 

[fnegroni]

I would imagine the battery isn't in its optimum temp range and although its call intelligent battery heating it will also intelligently cool to optimum temp if selected

It does not affect cooling. Only heating.

I’ve always left mine on, if it’s only half intelligent it won’t heat anyway, and I’ve not noticed any negative effects on range (presumably because it never heats the battery)

If your battery is below 10°C it will kick in and try and bring the battery to between 17 and 20°C.
That will consume a fair amount of energy.

The app gives you the option to pre-heat the battery (under the same conditions) if you don’t wish to use the charge stored in it, by charging from the wall box.

The most efficient use of battery heating is unfortunately beyond the intelligence built into the BMS at this moment.
If you are planning one or two short trips on that day, and the temperatures are above freezing, don’t bother.

If you are planning a couple short trips but temperatures are way below zero, preheat via the app

If you are planning a long trip and temperatures are above zero, use intelligent battery heating.

If you are planning a long trip and the temperatures are below zero, pre heat via the app.

If you need to rapid charge soon, the temperatures are below 10°C and the charger is within a 10 minutes journey, pre heat via the app.

If you need to rapid charge soon, the temperature are below 10°C but above zero, and the charger is 15 minutes or more away, use the intelligent battery heater.

If you need to rapid charge soon and the temperature is below zero, pre heat via the app.

 

[ReintjeWA]

If your battery is below 10°C it will kick in and try and bring the battery to between 17 and 20°C.
That will consume a fair amount of energy.

The app gives you the option to pre-heat the battery (under the same conditions) if you don’t wish to use the charge stored in it, by charging from the wall box.

The most efficient use of battery heating is unfortunately beyond the intelligence built into the BMS at this moment.
If you are planning one or two short trips on that day, and the temperatures are above freezing, don’t bother.

If you are planning a couple short trips but temperatures are way below zero, preheat via the app

If you are planning a long trip and temperatures are above zero, use intelligent battery heating.

If you are planning a long trip and the temperatures are below zero, pre heat via the app.

If you need to rapid charge soon, the temperatures are below 10°C and the charger is within a 10 minutes journey, pre heat via the app.

If you need to rapid charge soon, the temperature are below 10°C but above zero, and the charger is 15 minutes or more away, use the intelligent battery heater.

If you need to rapid charge soon and the temperature is below zero, pre heat via the app.

Yeah like I said, I don't expect it to kick in often for me then...

 

[Astral]

I do a lot of short runs in the city so I guess it's best to avoid pre-heating and I also do not do a lot of motorway driving that would require to fast charge so it's also not useful.

But, I do want to go on a longer trip over the Winter and I am thinking if I can pre-heat while I'm plugged in at home and still start with 100% battery then it could be worth it for the efficiency of the trip as I will be maxing out my range.

Has anyone tried to pre-heat while plugged in to a wall charger? How does it work exactly? Or is it enough to turn on the intelligent battery heating before putting the car on the charger? Will it automatically have the battery warmed up to let's say 20°C when the charge is at 100%? What if that happens at 3am overnight and I start my driving at 8am, will it still keep the battery warm until I leave? Filling up to keep the battery at 100% all the time?

Just so many questions I wonder why MG are not giving us some instructions with this one.

 

[fnegroni]

I do a lot of short runs in the city so I guess it's best to avoid pre-heating and I also do not do a lot of motorway driving that would require to fast charge so it's also not useful.

It's quite the opposite if indeed you are doing several short journeys through the day.
If temps are below 10°C, pre-heat the battery via the app about half an hour before your first journey.
The battery will then retain its heat throughout most of the day, giving you best efficiency and performance, while degrading less too.
Although using the battery can increase its temperature, the LFP pack in particular does not do so much, especially if its around freezing.
Once pre-heated, the intelligent battery heating will not kick in unless the battery falls below 10°C.

But, I do want to go on a longer trip over the Winter and I am thinking if I can pre-heat while I'm plugged in at home and still start with 100% battery then it could be worth it for the efficiency of the trip as I will be maxing out my range.

Yes, that is the best option if your charger supports it. Some chargers don't seem to allow it but you need to browse in this forum for more info in that regard. Mine is a PodPoint commercial charger and even if the battery is at 100% it will still pull from the charger.
Having said that, battery pre-heating consumes between 1 and 2 kWh at most.

is it enough to turn on the intelligent battery heating before putting the car on the charger?

The Intelligent Battery Heating only works when the car is started. It does nothing otherwise.

The BMS (battery management system) will warm up the battery when you are charging if needed, especially when the battery it's near 100%, but it will not warm it up to its full 20°C unless necessary.

Intelligent Battery Heating only kicks in if the car is started, and the battery is below 10°C, and it will bring the battery to between 17 and 20°C (if allowed to run its full course, you can always switch it off half way)

After pre-heating, the battery will retain the heat for a few hours while not being used, but it depends entirely on the outside temperatures.

 

[Astral]

Thanks for a detailed reply. Let me clear up the first statement.

I do a lot of short trips in the city but not in the same day. Daily I might do 2-3 trips with the distance being 6-7km in total...This is why I said it is probably best to avoid pre-heating in this case.
I can barely get some heat into the cabin, let alone the battery since it is such a short trip of 5-7minutes.

I do not charge the car daily, I charge once per week because I spend most of the battery over the weekends.

There is a video on youtube where the presenter says to turn on intelligent heating once you put the car charging overnight and turn it off once it is done charging. From what you said that would do absolutely nothing. So I am not sure which is correct.

You also said pre-heating takes 1-2kWh, but from other sources I have found evidence for at least 3kWh and even up to 6kWh. Do you have any source for this claim or self observation via OBD?

My understanding was that pre-heating is always taking power from the battery itself even if the car is plugged in to a wall charger. The only benefit is that this loss of % can be replaced by longer wall charging. Still not sure how the whole thing would work when the car is at 100% but I guess I can test this myself sometime.

 

[fnegroni]

I do a lot of short trips in the city but not in the same day. Daily I might do 2-3 trips with the distance being 6-7km in total...This is why I said it is probably best to avoid pre-heating in this case.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by several short trips, indeed you are correct if you don't demand 100% power or the temperatures are still above freezing. Otherwise I would argue preheating the battery on those colder days it's still best practice (although obviously it's not going to destroy the battery pack if you don't do so as the BMS will take care of that if it was the case)

There is a video on youtube where the presenter says to turn on intelligent heating once you put the car charging overnight and turn it off once it is done charging. From what you said that would do absolutely nothing. So I am not sure which is correct.

I am correct.
What can be beneficial if you are charging from a domestic outlet (i.e. using a granny charger) is to pre-heat the battery (via the app) before you put the car on charge especially if it's freezing temps for several hours and especially if you plan to charge to 100%.
The reason is that although it's true the BMS will take care of warming up the battery when needed while it's being charged (as I described), the demand in terms of kW from the battery heater is too much for a granny charger and your charging time will be extended enormously because the battery heating will also take a lot longer as it won't be able to fully support both at the same time. If charging overnight in cold temperatures, a 7kW charger is your best option.

You also said pre-heating takes 1-2kWh, but from other sources I have found evidence for at least 3kWh and even up to 6kWh. Do you have any source for this claim or self observation via OBD?

My own evidence shows that not to be the case if what we are talking about here is battery pre-heating as per via the app, as opposed to using Intelligent Battery Heating over several journeys on a particular day. If the IBH can't run for long enough, it will definitely keep consuming power every time you start the car if the battery pack is still too cold. That is unfortunate but it's as designed.
Pre heating via the app however is very unlikely to use that much, unless possibly in countries where it's, idk, -20°C. But even then, the pre-heating would have needed to run for an hour at full tilt, which is unlikely because once the PTC heater has heated up the coolant to around 37°C, the coolant pump circulates the heated coolant around the battery and then as the battery warms up, the coolant is heated a bit more but not constantly, and the coolant pump uses a few hundred watts only. This is all monitored via OBD dongle.

My understanding was that pre-heating is always taking power from the battery itself even if the car is plugged in to a wall charger. The only benefit is that this loss of % can be replaced by longer wall charging. Still not sure how the whole thing would work when the car is at 100% but I guess I can test this myself sometime.

You make a good point there: when the battery is at 100% charge and plugged in, while pre-heating it will use some of the battery charge, but at the same time the on board charger will draw power to charge the battery back up, but at a much lower rate, therefore it's a bit of both.

I'll hopefully do a test later today as my battery is at a lower state of charge right now whilst temps are -1°C, I will plug in the OBD dongle and let you know exactly how much draw from the charger etc I read.
Ultimately the BMS will decide what to do.

 

[MGFour]

It's quite the opposite if indeed you are doing several short journeys through the day.
If temps are below 10C, pre-heat the battery via the app about half an hour before your first journey.
The battery will then retain its heat throughout most of the day, giving you best efficiency and performance, while degrading less too.
Although using the battery can increase its temperature, the LFP pack in particular does not do so much, especially if its around freezing.
Once pre-heated, the intelligent battery heating will not kick in unless the battery falls below 10C.



Yes, that is the best option if your charger supports it. Some chargers don't seem to allow it but you need to browse in this forum for more info in that regard. Mine is a PodPoint commerciall charger and even if the battery is at 100% it will still pull from the charger.
Having said that, battery pre-heating consumes between 1 and 2 kWh at most.



The Intelligent Battery Heating only works when the car is started. It does nothing otherwise.

The BMS (battery management system) will warm up the battery when you are charging if needed, especially when the battery it's near 100%, but it will not warm it up to its full 20C unless necessary.

Intelligent Battery Heating only kicks in if the car is started, and the battery is below 10C, and it will bring the battery to between 17 and 20C (if allowed to run its full course, you can always switch it off half way)

After pre-heating, the battery will retain the heat for a few hours while not being used, but it depends entirely on the outside temperatures.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something as I can't see an option to heat battery via the app, only to heat the cabin. Is it the same and heats both I have SE if makes any difference?