MG4 LFP/NMC batteries

[tsedge]

In the thread about the incident someone posted a link to the report on a similar incident in Sweden, where an ICE car started a fire in which a lot of EVs were caught up. The conclusion was that the EVs hadn't made the fire any worse than it would have been otherwise.

Yes - different characteristics but not better or worse compared to ICE. Which means the focus needs to be on stopping these fires starting, which is an ICE issue.

 

[Haggis]

And I charge in a hospital carpark. Can't risk thermal runaway with patients just above where the car is recharging. It's where I currently charge my i-miev. Safety first always under those conditions. It has to be my first condition. Could live with myself if anything happens to a patient.

Do people park ICE cars there? Because if there's that level of risk they definitely should not be doing that.

It's not a risk as such. If the vehicle was just sitting there not charging then it's not a worry. But when it's charging if anything is going to happen that's when it will. Hot day hot battery from driving in a hot day heating up the battery whilst charging no movement of air in the carpark nobody there to monitor anything. It can often be 36 degrees and up here in Sydney. And it's a hospital setting. Not just a council carpark or shopping centre where people are ambulant and healthy. I just wouldn't want it on my mind while I'm working. And if anything happened...well I've already said it.

It's not a risk as such. If the vehicle was just sitting there not charging then it's not a worry. But when it's charging if anything is going to happen that's when it will. Hot day hot battery from driving in a hot day heating up the battery whilst charging no movement of air in the carpark nobody there to monitor anything. It can often be 36 degrees and up here in Sydney. And it's a hospital setting. Not just a council carpark or shopping centre where people are ambulant and healthy. I just wouldn't want it on my mind while I'm working. And if anything happened...well I've already said it.

Can you imagine. A 100 fire engines. Patients being transported to safety. TV cameras. A crowed of people eating ice-cream watching the hospital burn. Then someone comes up to me taps me on the shoulder and asks if I have an MG with a NMC battery.

 

[tsedge]

It's not a risk as such. If the vehicle was just sitting there not charging then it's not a worry. But when it's charging if anything is going to happen that's when it will. Hot day hot battery from driving in a hot day heating up the battery whilst charging no movement of air in the carpark nobody there to monitor anything. It can often be 36 degrees and up here in Sydney. And it's a hospital setting. Not just a council carpark or shopping centre where people are ambulant and healthy. I just wouldn't want it on my mind while I'm working. And if anything happened...well I've already said it.

I'm not going to say much more here but this really does demonstrate a lack of knowledge of modern EVs - there may well be a small risk of thermal runaway with your i-Miev, but there isn't with the modern designs like the MG4 (and almost all new EVs that came out in the last 3-4 years).

Active thermal management is built in to the battery systems, nobody needs to monitor. The modern packs thrive at higher temperatures - Teslas heat to 60C routinely.

These risks you are talking about are for an older generation of products.

I can understand your caution if you've had one of these products and suffered range loss, but that doesn't mean that your past experience is a good guide for today.

Maybe I've been harsh in my first response here but it is only because we are daily battling a lot of misinformation and fear, uncertainty and doubt that people have about getting a new EV, when we know from experience these fears are groundless.

 

[Haggis]

Can you imagine. A 100 fire engines. Patients being transported to safety. TV cameras. A crowed of people eating ice-cream watching the hospital burn. Then someone comes up to me taps me on the shoulder and asks if I have an MG with a NMC battery.

And thermal runaway for NMC battery is not much more than double the temperature of boiling water. That's not much at all.

 

[tsedge]

Can you imagine. A 100 fire engines. Patients being transported to safety. TV cameras. A crowed of people eating ice-cream watching the hospital burn. Then someone comes up to me taps me on the shoulder and asks if I have an MG with a NMC battery.

Find me one example of an MG EV catching fire by itself (ie other than the result of damage / an accident). Just one. Anywhere. Go on.

 

[Haggis]

I'm not going to say much more here but this really does demonstrate a lack of knowledge of modern EVs - there may well be a small risk of thermal runaway with your i-Miev, but there isn't with the modern designs like the MG4 (and almost all new EVs that came out in the last 3-4 years).

Active thermal management is built in to the battery systems, nobody needs to monitor. The modern packs thrive at higher temperatures - Teslas heat to 60C routinely.

These risks you are talking about are for an older generation of products.

I can understand your caution if you've had one of these products and suffered range loss, but that doesn't mean that your past experience is a good guide for today.

Maybe I've been harsh in my first response here but it is only because we are daily battling a lot of misinformation and fear, uncertainty and doubt that people have about getting a new EV, when we know from experience these fears are groundless.

That's understandable. But if something does happen. And I mean something. I can discuss with the prison psychologist and parole board why I keep repeating through dribbling saliva due to the medication I'm being given ...I should have gotten the LFP battery.

 

[tsedge]

And thermal runaway for NMC battery is not much more than double the temperature of boiling water. That's not much at all.

And Diesel will self-combust at the same temperature. What is your point?

ICE engines involve far higher temperatures than this too, which EVs don't.

You have an irrational fear of thermal runaway. I suggest you need to move beyond it.

That's understandable. But if something does happen. And I mean something. I can discuss with the prison psychologist and parole board why I keep repeating through dribbling saliva due to the medication I'm being given ...I should have gotten the LFP battery.

What makes you think even if something did happen that it would be your fault?

Please go and buy an LFP EV then. You'll clearly sleep better but don't be surprised if many others don't share your worries.

 

[Martinonline]

Again you are repeating the same statements without any supporting evidence. Please provide verified instances where an NMC battery has caused a catastrophic fire. If you cannot then please accept your lack of understanding of modern battery protection systems.

If you have a modern hospital underground parking area then it should have heat sensors and sprinkler systems. If not you should be more worried about the large number of ICE cars that are parked there.

I believe you are a Troll who promulgates myths just to cause division. Justify your assertions with verified statistics!!

 

[Rolfe]

I have the LFP battery and it's great. But if I had needed the range and the faster charging of the NMC battery I'd have got it and not worried.

 

[Haggis]

Find me one example of an MG EV catching fire by itself (ie other than the result of damage / an accident). Just one. Anywhere. Go on.

I don't want to be the first. It does happen. That's why there is a term called thermal runaway. And I put it to you that all of them that has happened have been with old technology or NMC batteries. Just look up the temperature required for thermal runaway to occur in an NMC battery. It's quite low in contrast to a LFP. Then the difference in cycles. LFP has 6x more cycles. That's a lot when the vehicle comes up for resale. There are advantages to NMC. Faster charging and less weight per KW. But each cell needs to be separated by I understand some kind of glass material to help minimise thermal runaway. They get quote hot when fast charging. And have a lower by far temperature for thermal runaway. If that happens the fire is able to feed itself. I knew nothing about this until I started reading it. There is a big trade off for the higher density of NMC. This is just what I have read in research before I decide to buy. I may change my mind if evidence is presented. But by what I am reading for me living in a very hot climate here in Australia I would go for LFP. If I was in Canada I would go for NMC because it works much better in low temperature than LFP. LFP can loose 40% or more of range in very low temperature. NMC does not.
I also believe there are additional vents that open on the MG4 NMC to assist with additional cooling of the battery. Is that evidence it needs more cooling. I don't know. But those addition vents on the grill are there for a reason. They are not there on the LFP.
This forum is for discussion purposes of the MG4. One presents evidence for discussion. Evidence. Chemical data on temperature for thermal runaway is evidence open for discussion. Now perhaps I'm paranoid. That's fine. That may be the reason I personally feel uncomfortable with NMC. But I do live in a climate where you can actually fry an egg on the footpath. FRY AN EGG. So imagine how hot it gets. So that's evidence right there. I'm in Australia not Canada or even the UK. I would be foolish not to consider this due to where I live.

 

[Rolfe]

The vents actually close the airflow off in the LR cars. In the SR the airflow is uninterrupted all the time.

Well, y'know, it's your decision, but everyone else here thinks you're over-reacting. Particularly when you diversify your fears from the whole fire thing to start badmouthing the durability of the batteries as well.

 

[profdraper]

There's really nothing new here re. LFP vs NMC battery chemistry at the time of writing - no doubt, this will heat up a lot in the next few years as we see newer batteries come onto the market with faster charging times & longer ranges. For now, most EV maufacturers uses this same duality in their shorter range - LFP in SR vs NMC in longer range cars, eg, Tesla long vs short, Volvo C40 vs EX30 SR, MG LR vs LR.

Personallly, I own a 22 MG ZS EV SR LFP & having stepped up from the earlier gen 1 ZSEV NMC. No comparison really (and aside from the tech /comfort upgrades) the LFP is brilliant, charge to 100% as you like & get on with it. 99% charging at home.

I find NMC battery cars a little underwhelming because practically, they only deliver 80% of their claimed wltp range (which is usually dodgy & overstated anyway), then one needs to factor in battery equalisation & 100% charging every couple of months to halp ensure lack of cell degredation .... blah, blah, blah.

Presently, the longest range LFP EVs are the Telsa M3 RWD (513k RWD), MY SR (455k wltp) and the Atto 3 LR (440k wltp). & I agree with others here re the MG4 - unless you really need lots of long distance driving, go for the LFP version ... oh, & the rants about NMC vs LFP & battery fires in the media are just BS ...LFP as a lower density battery gets more cycles, that's about it.

 

[Rolfe]

I think there might be something to be said for NMC in relation to people who can't charge at home. One of the issues if you can't charge at home is being able to do a balance charge. Many type 2 chargers have time limits which could prevent someone relying on these from balancing. Many people without home charging may have to rely a lot on rapid chargers, and running the car up and down between 20% and 80% on these without much balancing. The NMC, which only needs balancing once a month, is better suited to this lifestyle I think. Grab what charge you can when and how you can get it, and only worry about finding somewhere to leave the car on an AC charger once a month. You could even borrow a friend's driveway and use your granny lead, after having gone up as high as you reasonably can on a rapid charger.

In contrast the LFP really seems to like to go to 100% and balance whenever you charge. Dead easy if you have your own wall box, or even a granny lead trailing out of the window at home, but not so easy if you're relying on public charging.

 

[tsedge]

I don't want to be the first. It does happen. That's why there is a term called thermal runaway. And I put it to you that all of them that has happened have been with old technology or NMC batteries. Just look up the temperature required for thermal runaway to occur in an NMC battery. It's quite low in contrast to a LFP. Then the difference in cycles. LFP has 6x more cycles. That's a lot when the vehicle comes up for resale. There are advantages to NMC. Faster charging and less weight per KW. But each cell needs to be separated by I understand some kind of glass material to help minimise thermal runaway. They get quote hot when fast charging. And have a lower by far temperature for thermal runaway. If that happens the fire is able to feed itself. I knew nothing about this until I started reading it. There is a big trade off for the higher density of NMC. This is just what I have read in research before I decide to buy. I may change my mind if evidence is presented. But by what I am reading for me living in a very hot climate here in Australia I would go for LFP. If I was in Canada I would go for NMC because it works much better in low temperature than LFP. LFP can loose 40% or more of range in very low temperature. NMC does not.

Your climate is a red herring. I've already pointed out that EVs like to heat their batteries into a higher temperature because they work best in a higher temperature range - Teslas as I said are heating themselves to 60C, far hotter, for optimum operation.

You seem to think that manufacturers haven't been successful in combating thermal runaway in their designs and engineering. They have, which is why the number of EV fires is so small and much less of a risk than with ICE. No it isn't zero - pack damage can cause a fire, just as damage to an ICE car can cause a fire. There have also been some bad designs in the past as manufacturers learned how to address this.

But you are far too focused on what can happen in theory, in the laboratory, but not what is happening in the real world.

There are countries, like mine, with a much higher percentage of EVs on the road and we are not seeing these problems. There are countries, like Norway, where almost everyone drives an EV and they are not seeing these problems.

I will say no more.

 

[JonnyG]

The Viking has covered this recently with some stats :

 

[tsedge]

Yes, good piece from the Viking, action needs to be taken urgently to reduce ICE fires and if particular makes are bad for them, the manufacturers need to made liable for them.

 

[Calm as]

Being in Oz when I was a kid in the 70's/80's driving up and down the Pacific Highway for our summer holidays... you would see a minimum of 1 VW Combi Van either on fire or left where it was burnt. I am yet to see an electric car go up in the last 5 years.

 

[Haggis]

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I think there might be something to be said for NMC in relation to people who can't charge at home. One of the issues if you can't charge at home is being able to do a balance charge. Many type 2 chargers have time limits which could prevent someone relying on these from balancing. Many people without home charging may have to rely a lot on rapid chargers, and running the car up and down between 20% and 80% on these without much balancing. The NMC, which only needs balancing once a month, is better suited to this lifestyle I think. Grab what charge you can when and how you can get it, and only worry about finding somewhere to leave the car on an AC charger once a month. You could even borrow a friend's driveway and use your granny lead, after having gone up as high as you reasonably can on a rapid charger.

In contrast the LFP really seems to like to go to 100% and balance whenever you charge. Dead easy if you have your own wall box, or even a granny lead trailing out of the window at home, but not so easy if you're relying on public charging.

I've read that if you get the SE LR it's therefore the NMC battery. But the motor is a 201HP. Whereas the SE SR with LFP is 168HP. Is this true? That's 31HP more. Almost 20% greater HP.

That's Brake Horsepower by the way.

 

[Martinonline]

Ah, the infamous rating to see how quickly you can break the car as opposed to how much power is required to brake it.

 

[Ian Key]

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I've read that if you get the SE LR it's therefore the NMC battery. But the motor is a 201HP. Whereas the SE SR with LFP is 168HP. Is this true? That's 31HP more. Almost 20% greater HP.

You can find all the specifications for the Australian version here