Nov 17th Budget - Tax impact for EVs

[Paulie68]

Are they not already in power.
Les

Never a truer word...

 

[GuV]

I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce a £ per mile driven charge to BEVs in The UK.
Here in New Zealand it already exists for diesel vehicles. There is no excise tax on diesel at the pump. Diesel vehicles are charged per kilometres driven. There is talk that this will include BEVs from 2024 in NZ.
Motoring is going to become Orwellian. I can see a future where all fuel excise tax will be scrapped and all vehicles will be charged per kilometre/miles driven. And I would not be surprised if it's linked to some sort of road pricing scheme where the charge for the miles driven will be higher at peak times. This will all be done electronically with some sort of GPS tracker being mandatory on vehicles. Big Brother will be watching where, when and how we drive.

 

[smokie]

Hence our smart motorways...

 

[Les burrows]

Well folks it is now 23:30 hrs here in the UK Thursday 17th of November 2022 for the last few weeks all we have seen and heard about in the media is, Black Friday this and that, well this day must go down as the Blackest Thursday on record for us EV owners and drivers.

Road tax now to apply to EV from 2025 could even come sooner knowing the government we have today and might have in power in the future I don’t trust anything they say anymore none of them.

Extra taxes being put on the energy producers what ever that means, will that have an effect energy prices and perhaps on time of use tariffs, I would put money on it and it will be us the consumers who will pay for it.

And as for the environment and the future of our children and their children afterwards, destroying the uptake of EVs is a very big mistake in my view, and that’s what the two actions today which I have listed above will do.

I wonder how many people have said today well you can forget having an electric vehicle now it’s not worth it, or there’s no point in buying one any more.

The market will probably take a very big dip in orders unless of course the manufacturers, decide to offer some incentives to buy their goods like they where doing only a couple of years back, for example £4000 off a new MG when I ordered mine in September 2020 plus £3500 off her majesties Government to encourage you to buy one to help save the planet after cop 24 I think it was

Cop 25,26,27 what’s all that about maybe a couple of good days on the lash for the leaders of our world, I can hear certain leaders of the world saying the UK are saying we are going to do this that and the other to try and cut C02 emissions, and we will make a start by placing extra costs on owning an Electric Vehicle so lots of people will buy an ICE because they are so much cheaper to buy and in many cases just as cheap to run on our roads now never mind what’s coming out the back of them.
Thank god it’s now Friday. And that Black Thursday as passed. But it could be R.I.P to the growth of the EV revolution I hope not for all our sakes.
Les

 

[4ND]

Well folks it is now 23:30 hrs here in the UK Thursday 17th of November 2022 for the last few weeks all we have seen and heard about in the media is, Black Friday this and that, well this day must go down as the Blackest Thursday on record for us EV owners and drivers.

Road tax now to apply to EV from 2025 could even come sooner knowing the government we have today and might have in power in the future I don’t trust anything they say anymore none of them.

Extra taxes being put on the energy producers what every that means, will that have an effect energy prices and perhaps on time of use tariffs, I would put money on it and it will be us the consumers who will pay for it.

And as for the environment and the future of our children and their children afterwards, destroying the uptake of EVs is a very big mistake in my view, and that’s what the two actions today which I have listed above will do.

I wonder how many people have said today well you can forget having an electric vehicle now it’s not worth it, or there’s no point in buying one any more.

The market will probably take a very big dip in orders unless of course the manufacturers, decide to offer some incentives to buy their goods like they where doing only a couple of years back, for example £4000 off a new MG when I ordered mine in September 2020 plus £3500 off her majesties Government to encourage you to buy one to help save the planet after cop 24 I think it was

Cop 25,26,27 what’s all that about maybe a couple of good days on the lash for the leaders of our world, I can hear certain leaders of the world saying the UK are saying we are going to do this that and the other to try and cut C02 emissions, and we will make a start by placing extra costs on owning an Electric Vehicle so lots of people will buy an ICE because they are so much cheaper to buy and in many cases just as cheap to run on our roads now never mind what’s coming out the back of them.
Thank god it’s now Friday. And that Black Thursday as passed. But it could be R.I.P to the growth of the EV revolution I hope not for all our sakes.
Les

1) It isn't really a 'blackest Thursday' in regard to VED on electric cars; a free lunch is/was going to end eventually. Just like 'free' TESCO chargers. I do agree with your comment on 'trust' (or lack of it) though.
2)

'And as for the environment and the future of our children and their children afterwards, destroying the uptake of EVs is a very big mistake in my view, and that’s what the two actions today which I have listed above will do.

I wonder how many people have said today well you can forget having an electric vehicle now it’s not worth it, or there’s no point in buying one any more.'

Not sure how 'destroying the uptake of EVs' has occurred, despite lacing it in the sorts of emotive 'children and their children' language in order to make it a social emotive argument which people think they 'can't' argue against. They aren't 'destroyed', just many incentives, which couldn't last forever (how long could other road users and tax payers subsidize someone's car) are being servery reduced or removed.
It might be just that EVs will compete in the market on their own merit, just like 501 jeans have to. And they have, at least on paper, one MASSIVE market advantage- their competitor is to be banned in 8 or so years. And no doubt they will then be subject of pretty much everything, tax wise, an ICE car does these days.

3) Regarding manufacturers/dealers reducing prices. My heart bleeds for them. And moreover, I'm sure I heard lot of people moaning on forums in the past how they used to jack up RRP prices to essentially grab that Govt discount/handout for themselves.


Cheap home charging, free home chargers, electric car grants, free public charging, scrappage schemes etc etc can't last forever. This is another step along that reality.
The only real variable in the above is energy prices. In the future, when they fall, as will the cost of charging, unless of course they are used as a means to recoup some of the BLLIONS lost revenue in petrol/diesel VAT and duty as ICE cars are 'banned'


In a nutshell: Not so long ago an electric car purchaser got a nice Gov't tax payer grant, had another tax payer grant paying a significant sum towards the workmen coming around and installing their home charger, maybe got a good scrappage cost, had dirt cheap electricity rates (granted it probably didn't seem so at the time), had free car tax and could top up for free at TESCO (and some other) chargers, with other public chargers not having £1 per KWH displayed on them. I'd say an electric car owner did pretty well on that lot, especially when across the road someone who couldn't afford one was giving 70-80-90p of VAT and fuel duty with every litre of petrol they used, to fill up their car on the way to work .
The falling of money out of the sky has now ended and they will have to compete in the market on their own merit (still, with some advantages like their main competitor got a sand timer attached to them).

 

[smokie]

That's all a bit gloomy really Les. No-one likes being taxed but they are talking about £165 a year to use the roads, which is not unreasonable when you look at what, say, your TV service, fags/booze, or mobile phone costs you.

There is talk of fuel duty (on petrol and diesel) going up 12% whch I suspect will be a bigger price hike than £165.

AIUI the tax on energy producers is windfall tax on excess profits, so the people who will "suffer" will mainly be the shareholders getting smaller dividends. I suppose you could argue that this might result in increased prices but I'm not sure they would get away with much at more at today's rates.

There are people who buy EVs to be green, to try to save the planet, rather than focusing solely on cost saving. And manufacturers are cutting back production of ICE cars in favour of EVs so new cars won't be there to be bought in a few years. The UK are predicting 50% of new cars bought here will be EVs by 2025.

The car market (and many others) may well take a big dip as it is what they call discretionary spending. We are in a bad time economically, as is much of the world. Our additional burden is BREXIT.

 

[mickw]

I'm waiting for delivery of an EV, but I also drive a low emission (1 litre engine) ICE which is taxed at £30.

Are they planning to get rid of the tax reduction for low emission ICEs before 2025? If not, I can't see how they could tax EVs at a higher rate than even the "greenest" ICE (currently £30)?

In other words are they planning from 2025 to have a single flat rate (currently £185) for all cars regardless of their emissions or engine type or will there still be incentives for greener cars?

Apologies if this topic has already been covered on here, but the thread is too long to trawl through every post...

 

[4ND]

I'm waiting for delivery of an EV, but I also drive a low emission (1 litre engine) ICE which is taxed at £30.

Are they planning to get rid of the tax reduction for low emission ICEs before 2025? If not, I can't see how they could tax EVs at a higher rate than even the "greenest" ICE (currently £30)?

In other words are they planning from 2025 to have a single flat rate (currently £185) for all cars regardless of their emissions or engine type or will there still be incentives for greener cars?

Apologies if this topic has already been covered on here, but the thread is too long to trawl through every post...

I don't think anyone know the answer to that at present. It seems all that's been mentioned is electric cars are subject to tax from April 2025. Anything else is just surmising, unless of course someone can find some literature otherwise.

 

[tsedge]

I don't think anyone know the answer to that at present. It seems all that's been mentioned is electric cars are subject to tax from April 2025. Anything else is just surmising, unless of course someone can find some literature otherwise.

These are the current rates for new cars (pre budget) from second year onwards (if <£40,000 for ICE)

 

[JohnInFrance]

Oh dear. Well, the gist of it is that a tax on EVs will be introduced from the 2025-26 tax year, starting small and then growing with the goal to be able to replace the revenue lost as people switch to EVs en masse by 2035.

But what is the problem of this? As ICE use declines the revenue from fuel duty has to be replaced somehow and why should we, as EV users, be exempt from the charges others face for using the roads?

 

[tsedge]

I'm waiting for delivery of an EV, but I also drive a low emission (1 litre engine) ICE which is taxed at £30.

Are they planning to get rid of the tax reduction for low emission ICEs before 2025? If not, I can't see how they could tax EVs at a higher rate than even the "greenest" ICE (currently £30)?

In other words are they planning from 2025 to have a single flat rate (currently £185) for all cars regardless of their emissions or engine type or will there still be incentives for greener cars?

Apologies if this topic has already been covered on here, but the thread is too long to trawl through every post...

The £30 rate hasn’t been available for new cars for a while. It is £165/£155 after the first year for ICE/hybrid (this is pre budget).

 

[tsedge]

But what is the problem of this? As ICE use declines the revenue from fuel duty has to be replaced somehow and why should we, as EV users, be exempt from the charges others face for using the roads?

Did I say it was a problem? I was responding to an earlier conversation. Yes, I agree we should pay, although I think it should be less than ICE.

 

[JohnInFrance]

Did I say it was a problem? I was responding to an earlier conversation. Yes, I agree we should pay, although I think it should be less than ICE.

I don't believe that either ICE/PHEV/BEV should be prioritised one way or another. All EVs still produce plenty of carbon emissions and other damage to the environment, and are argueably no greener than ICE vehicles (that's for another thread) until considerably further into their lifecycle.

The current incentives are just that; incentives to influence us to use/purchase a vehicle that, for many, offers less flexibility that a 'traditional' car and is often considerably more expensive than the ICE equivilent - and there is nothing wrong with that but these cannot last forever.

I firmly believe that excise duties are wrong, they are an exceptionally blunt instrument which are outdated and and inefficient both for the government and owners/users. Road pricing is far fairer and can be used to activly improve things such as pollution and air quality by varying the cost to drive on certain roads based upon time/traffic levels and, as my ZS EV takes up the same space on the road as the ICE ZS, I should pay the same amount to use that road. Yes, I know that will cause outrage in an EV communtiy because we often look at things in a somewhat blinkered way, but I really feel we have benefitted well to date from unbalanced incentives and that as the time to removes them comes upon us, there should be a balanced way that is fair to everyone, not just a few.

 

[Lovemyev]

Yes, I agree we should pay, although I think it should be less than ICE

I do feel the same way to be honest.
We all expected to pay VED at some time, I think.
Let’s be real fellow EV owners.
But the way they have classified the rates are just totally wacky ?.
But they have been erratic with regards to this ratting system for years now.
My wife has a small Eco friendly Fiat 500 ( I know, but she thinks it’s “Cute” ?‍) and the VED is rated at a cheap £20 / year.
This rate was set alongside its then co/2 exhaust emissions at that time of purchase from new.
Fiat are still retailing the very same car, with the same emission figures, but the VED is now set at £165.00 ?‍.
When the VED charge comes into force on our zero emission ZS EV it is likely to be at the same starting rate of £165.00.
I am sure there is many of us who can relate to this story of course.
So, what separates these cars then, other than applying this crazy difference in cost ?.
TIME !.
The Fiat was first registered in 2016 and it was okay ? to set VED at £20 back then.
In 2025 they will be stand side-by-side on our driveway.
Let’s just look ? at this for a second now ?.
The car emitting toxic gases into the air, using the same roads, that the government decided was rated at a duty of £20 on one side.
The second car that is emitting ZERO emissions to the air ? and using the same roads, pays a charge of £165.00 in VED duty.
Shakes his head it total disbelief ?.
Applying duty to EV’s was just an easy target that popped up on the radar really.
Saves coming up with a system that’s linked to the mileage covered and charges placed on that basis.
I have a question ??‍ folks.
Some members are now seasoned owners of either one or even multiple EV’s by now.
“IF the total price of running your EV became the same as the cost of running an ICE car, would you consider reverting BACK to a fossil car ?”.
( Until they stop production of course ).
I can just hear the cogs spinning right now ?.

 

[JohnInFrance]

... “IF the total price of running your EV became the same as the cost of running an ICE car, would you consider reverting BACK to a fossil car ?”.

Without a doubt - EVs are not green and we are kidding ourselves if we think they are, they are emission free at the point they are driven, nothing more.

All transport produces waste and emissions, even horse and cart, so for me it's all about cost - we love our EV, it's become our daily when we never thought that it would, but that's mainly because it is the cheapest option - if there were no price difference, then I'd go ICE by choice every time as journey and refuelling times are generally less.

 

[4ND]

These are the current rates for new cars (pre budget) from second year onwards (if <£40,000 for ICE)

Current = not 2025

 

[Paulie68]

Without a doubt - EVs are not green and we are kidding ourselves if we think they are, they are emission free at the point they are driven, nothing more.

All transport produces waste and emissions, even horse and cart, so for me it's all about cost - we love our EV, it's become our daily when we never thought that it would, but that's mainly because it is the cheapest option - if there were no price difference, then I'd go ICE by choice every time as journey and refuelling times are generally less.

I have to take issue with you on this. Apart from being free of local pollution, EV's cause demonstrably less pollution over the whole life cycle. You're "nothing more" is nonsense frankly.

Also, don't assume most people think like you do and would happily use the sh***est form of polluting ICE vehicle if costs were on a par with EV.

 

[Lovemyev]

if there were no price difference, then I'd go ICE by choice every time as journey and refuelling times are generally less.

Mmmm …… Interesting quick responce !.
It would be great to hear what other EV owners think on this subject.
Was you solely attracted back then, by cheaper running cost of use at the time, or by the driving experience received from an EV maybe / maybe not over a fossil car ?.
This could get really interesting ( for me anyway ) to hear peoples responses.
Has the “honeymoon / love affair” of EV’s started to quickly “wane away” in some way now, as the incentives are clearly being eroded quickly now ?.
Cost plays a massive part in this given the cost of living crisis we are likely to be stuck in for a while.
There is likely to be another hike in fuel duty costs in the new year I think, we all know what that is likely effect that is going to have on peoples live’s for sure !.

 

[tsedge]

Current = not 2025

Yes, my point was that the £30 rate is long gone (for new cars) and from 2025 the £165 rate also applies to EVs.

Edit: unclear if hybrids will be cheaper from 2025, I doubt it as would not make sense.

 

[Paulie68]

Mmmm …… Interesting quick responce !.
It would be great to hear what other EV owners think on this subject.
Was you solely attracted back then, by cheaper running cost of use at the time, or by the driving experience received from an EV maybe / maybe not over a fossil car ?.
This could get really interesting ( for me anyway ) to hear peoples responses.
Has the “honeymoon / love affair” of EV’s started to quickly “wane away” in some way now, as the incentives are clearly being eroded quickly now ?.
Cost plays a massive part in this given the cost of living crisis we are likely to be stuck in for a while.
There is likely to be another hike in fuel duty costs in the new year I think, we all know what that is likely effect that is going to have on peoples live’s for sure !.

For me it's the following:

EV's are so much better to drive, with far more elegant engineering and simplicity of maintenance.

No local pollution at all, this is essential to get to in towns and cities. Walking down a main road at rush hour is currently hideous in most places.

Further, lower life cycle CO2 emissions are also important to me.

I also enjoy the much lower running costs in my case, (currently about 5% of equivalent ICE, increasing to 10% as of the new year) but if costs were the same, there's no way I'd be going back to ICE, ever!

My circumstances, just for reference, (and I do fully accept EV's don't work well for some people yet!) I'm quite well off, charge exclusively at home at the end of my drive, and almost never need to exceed the range of my battery (over 300 miles in worst conditions) in one trip.