Poll: Why did you go electric?

[Archev]

I think I'm seeing a pattern here.

• Has a "self-charging" hybrid, i.e. an ICE car, not an EV.
• Thinks EVs are only a stop-gap until hydrogen appears (oh my aching sides...)
• Informing us that JCB are the oracle on the bright future of hydrogen.
• Believes it's "less polluting" to keep an old ICE banger on the road than to get an EV (that one has been comprehensively debunked to hell and gone, never mind that these things are money pits).
• Believes said old banger has "more character" than an EV or a hybrid. Sure, that's a personal thing, but I'd say they have character like Steptoe and Alf Garnett have character. Character I'd be filing for divorce from.
• Thinks the charging infrastructure still needs to "improve dramatically" or people will be queueing up to buy old ICE cars.
• Telling lies about Amazon delivery vans. (It may be that they were auctioning off superseded models, but to invest in new vehicles, not because they're "unworkable". I drive through Keighley regularly and I don't believe this rubbish about Amazon having some special ICE delivery vans just for there for one second.)

This is precisely what FUD is. It's the absolute definition of FUD. @Big Ears, you wouldn't like to add that we'll all be sorry when we have to pay £40,000 for a new battery in four or five years, or that we'll be lucky if it hasn't gone up in flames before then? Or that they cost thousands to insure, or that they're useless in winter, or that you get seasick driving in them? Because with that you'd probably have a full house of anti-EV talking points. Straight out of the Daily Mail playbook, even if you're only doing the crossword.

You've never owned an EV, you've never lived with one, you've never experienced the 2p/mile fuel costs or the amazing convenience of waking up to a full "tank" every morning, or how easy and trouble-free long journeys are in 2024. As another member said above, only someone whose brain is rusted to a cylinder head would believe this nonsense.

@Big Ears, I don't know what you're even doing here. You may have an MG, but it's an ICE. You hate EVs, and you believe every single piece of nonsense put out by the vested interests who want to stop EV sales and put the public off the best thing that's happened for personal transport since the ICE itself. And for some reason you want to tell us all about it.

I suggest, rather, that if you hang around, it's going to be other members who will be telling you. And thanks for that, @T1 Terry.

I can hear it now
“You dirty old car” ??

 

[okohll]

I have nothing against EVs at all, show me where I have explicitly said that please

Well to be fair you have implicitly said that in your last comment saying that places are 'too hilly' for EVs. Where I am is also very hilly. The actual reason (looking it up) is the Post Office is starting in cities with ULEZ, then expanding out to 100% by 2030.

 

[Archev]

Well to be fair you have implicitly said that in your last comment saying that places are 'too hilly' for EVs. Where I am is also very hilly. The actual reason (looking it up) is the Post Office is starting in cities with ULEZ, then expanding out to 100% by 2030.

The hilly bits are where these vehicles really come into their own.

 

[Rolfe]

You overstep your bounds as a moderator there, I'll have nothing more to do with you as you have obviously got your own agenda and are seeing only what you want to see.

I have nothing against EVs at all, show me where I have explicitly said that please, I've called you out before and you just ignored it as you could not as I have never said a single thing against EVs other than the charging situation, I don't have one because I have nowhere to charge one so got as near as I could or I may have got one.

This is a great little forum, and has some great members so I'll stop there, so if you want to have a pop do it in a PM not embarrass yourself in a thread.

I'm not posting as a moderator. You have not been sanctioned in any way. I've quoted your own words back at you. I'm posting as a member who is sick and tired of seeing the anti-EV lobby and various petrolheads come here with false and exaggerated stories to rubbish EVs.

You can't charge at home, and that is a perfectly good reason not to buy an EV yourself. It's not a reason to spout the entire Daily Mail playbook of anti-EV lies, particuarly in a forum where people DO have EVs and know perfectly well that this is all lies.

There are plenty people here with legitimate gripes about their cars, specific gripes about actual problems they have encountered. That's not what you're doing. You are exhibiting all the signs of an anti-EV zealot. This isn't the place for that. Speaking personally, of course.

Now, I don't want to get into a position where it might seem that I'm pulling moderator rank, so I will bow out of this discussion. But I've said what I think.

 

[Rolfe]

The hilly bits are where these vehicles really come into their own.

When I took my car for its first away-from-home trip a few weeks after buying it, I went to stay with friends in Halifax. Driving through Keighley on my way there and back, as I always do. My friend and her husband took me joyriding in the moors round about, with me driving and them directing. They picked some fairly hairy roads where I'd have been quite nervous in a car with manual transmission. The MG4 went up and down them with the greatest of ease, including the ones with hairpin bends.

At the end of it all I was absolutely gobsmacked by how good my fuel consumption had been. Something like 4.5 miles/kwh. I think it was a combination of the fact that you can't go fast on these roads, and the regeneration.

Regarding Amazon, the reason I said what I said about a strange business model was something I read written by a man who lives along a very difficult lane where delivery vehicles often get into difficulty. He contrasted one company, I think it was DPD, whose driver just phoned the depot and they arranged everything including recovery of the van, with Amazon, whose driver apparently was the owner of his van and was left to his own devices to get himself out of trouble. But that could have been a private contractor being used by Amazon and not one of their own delivery vans, I don't know. I do know that all the Amazon delivery vans that come here are electric.

 

[Big Ears]

I may do but I don't know anyone on here as far as I know.

I'm 1.9miles from the N Yorks border.

I did wonder if there would be enough Lithium to supply te demand, and there is, but the tech is constantly be re-inveted.

Well to be fair you have implicitly said that in your last comment saying that places are 'too hilly' for EVs. Where I am is also very hilly. The actual reason (looking it up) is the Post Office is starting in cities with ULEZ, then expanding out to 100% by 2030.

I was referring to vans there not cars, vans have a limited payload most are around 1 to 1.5 tons, subtract the EV battery so that will reduce quite a bit hills add weight effectively this is why they are no good around here, in a city is a different thing altogether lots of deliveries in a small area, not where I live in the country, my misgivings, if I had to name them, isn't range, it's charging if we bought one, we did discuss it but it's just didn't appeal to us, the MG3 wasn't on our radar as I hadn't looked at hybrids for the same reason, but the self charging one fits the bill, or it would if we could see the EV range and lock it in around town.

They keep bringing out EV Motorhomes but so far the range is pitiful, I don't know how many camp sites have charging facilities, I do know the most EHU post are limited to 16amps I have no idea if you could charge from that without tripping the whole camp site, I do know there are some Motorhome owners who buy a cable off Ebay to allow them to charge their pleasure batteries form an EV charging point which is in my humble opinion a horrendous thing to even contemplate but it happens it seems.

For Motorhomes unless they change the archaic laws on licences to allow anyone to go up to 7.5t the best way for now would be some sort of self charging hybrid.

 

[Big Ears]

When I took my car for its first away-from-home trip a few weeks after buying it, I went to stay with friends in Halifax. Driving through Keighley on my way there and back, as I always do. My friend and her husband took me joyriding in the moors round about, with me driving and them directing. They picked some fairly hairy roads where I'd have been quite nervous in a car with manual transmission. The MG4 went up and down them with the greatest of ease, including the ones with hairpin bends.

At the end of it all I was absolutely gobsmacked by how good my fuel consumption had been. Something like 4.5 miles/kwh. I think it was a combination of the fact that you can't go fast on these roads, and the regeneration.

Regarding Amazon, the reason I said what I said about a strange business model was something I read written by a man who lives along a very difficult lane where delivery vehicles often get into difficulty. He contrasted one company, I think it was DPD, whose driver just phoned the depot and they arranged everything including recovery of the van, with Amazon, whose driver apparently was the owner of his van and was left to his own devices to get himself out of trouble. But that could have been a private contractor being used by Amazon and not one of their own delivery vans, I don't know. I do know that all the Amazon delivery vans that come here are electric.

I seriously think you are reading between the lines of something I have not said as such and adding 2+2 =50 all you need to do is show me where I have said any of the lies you cause me of and being anti EV, I have asked twice now, this is the third time, I know you won't as I know I've not said that so please get off your soap box as you are really ruining this forum for me and anyone else who must see through by now

I AM NOT ANTI EV, BUT IT DOES HAVE SOME DRAWBACKS.

 

[Bam Bam]

I did wonder if there would be enough Lithium to supply te demand, and there is, but the tech is constantly be re-inveted.

Yes sodium batteries are coming soon, but I think the lithium supply issue is hugely overblown.

Lithium was an unwanted waste product until recently. There is plenty on planet earth, the question is just whether people have had the incentive to go looking for it. Now people are looking it is turning up all over the place.

Of course, once deposits are found it often has to be separated from other things, which usually takes a lot of water, which is also a precious resource in some of the deserts where the lithium deposits are.

I think Copper supply is the biggest worry for electrification, but aluminium is an alternative conductive metal that can be used as a substitute.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't think sodium is going to be practical for vehicle batteries, from what I hear, but it might take over for a lot of applicatons where energy density isn't so important. We also have to consider that the lithium, copper, aluminium and so on aren't burned or destroyed by the EV, but are available to be recycled into new EVs when they reach end of life. It's not going to take enormous quantities of water to separate the lithium from other things when it's an old battery that's being recycled.

 

[Big Ears]

Yes sodium batteries are coming soon, but I think the lithium supply issue is hugely overblown.

Lithium was an unwanted waste product until recently. There is plenty on planet earth, the question is just whether people have had the incentive to go looking for it. Now people are looking it is turning up all over the place.

Of course, once deposits are found it often has to be separated from other things, which usually takes a lot of water, which is also a precious resource in some of the deserts where the lithium deposits are.

I think Copper supply is the biggest worry for electrification, but aluminium is an alternative conductive metal that can be used as a substitute.

Indeed, I think I saw something about salt too not long ago, the boffins are at it for sure.

 

[Big Ears]

Bugger, sodium is salt

 

[Bam Bam]

I don't think sodium is going to be practical for vehicle batteries, from what I hear, but it might take over for a lot of applicatons where energy density isn't so important. We also have to consider that the lithium, copper, aluminium and so on aren't burned or destroyed by the EV, but are available to be recycled into new EVs when they reach end of life. It's not going to take enormous quantities of water to separate the lithium from other things when it's an old battery that's being recycled.

Yes much better for home/grid storage.

There are some small cars in China with Sodium batteries though, and the up front cost savings might be appealing to drivers in the developing world who aren't so worried about range.

 

[Rolfe]

@Big Ears, what you said about Amazon giving up EV delivery vans because they had been found to be "unworkable" simply wasn't true.

I appreciate it's often not practical to have an EV if you can't charge at home. Hopefully that will change in the future with priorities changing from big flashy DC chargers to fitting 7 kw AC chargers everywhere people park their cars at night, and EV ownership will be open to anyone who wants one. But even then it's not going to be as cheap as it is for people who can get on Octopus's 7p tariff. (I think Eon may even have a 6p one, though for a shorter time.) It's an unequal world.

That is a perfectly valid thing to complain about. But all this nonsense about delivery vans not being able to get up hills and hydrogen being on the way and it being less polluting to (spend a bloody fortune to) keep an old banger on the road than to have an EV, I mean give it up already.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes much better for home/grid storage.

There are some small cars in China with Sodium batteries though, and the up front cost savings might be appealing to drivers in the developing world who aren't so worried about range.

That's true, I read about that. There may be applications where people simply don't want the sort of range we do, either because they live in a city where they only drive short distances and maybe have a great rail network for long trips, or simply for a second car in a household. And in the developing world. So yes, all of that.

 

[T1 Terry]

As far as the sodium ion cells/batteries, there are hundreds of variants ranging from graphene to solid carbon anodes (bad classification really, the anode and cathode are interchangeable depending if the cell is charging or discharging) the electrolyte mix, salt water has been abandoned because it leads to short cycle life and poor capacity .... the old enemy, the oxygen and hydrogen bond is broken and the oxygen does its thing and oxidises everything that heat cycles.

I was in the process of doing comparison testing between LFP, LYP and sodium ion cells in a 4 cell 12v battery. The 200Ah sodium ion cells are a little smaller than the 100Ah Winston LYP and LFP cells (needed to add a spacer under them to get the terminal heights the same).
The idea was to monitor cell voltages, cell nominal voltage (the voltage a cell drops to under its maximum continuous current load, yet bounces back once the load is removed) to see what the difference was regarding continuous load, recharge acceptance rate and degradation when pushed beyond what would be an acceptable C rate (percentage of capacity as a continuous load)

Unfortunately, all I have left is a few partly melted sodium ion cell cases, the fire was so intense it melted or even vaporised/burnt aluminium, so the plastic cases on the Winston cells didn't stand a chance. All the plates in all the cells are still there and there are clearly a lot more plates in the 200Ah sodium ion cells than in the 100Ah lithium ferrous phosphate cells (LiFeP04 or LFP for short) and the lithium yttrium ferrous phosphate cells (LYP for short).

As soon as I have the $$, the experiments will happen, my plan is to use sodium ion cells as the propulsion battery cells for my 10 tonne motorhome hybrid conversion, I just need to find the manufacturer that has the component balance right to suit the purpose I'm looking for .... I also plan to pioneer using sodium ion cells for house power storage.
The reason is the hysteria that has been generated around anything with lithium in its name. I blame the media for this and the limited intelligence of those in the govt that believe what they read in the papers ....... Anyone who is in the know, understands the battery fires are caused by oxygen being generated within the cell. Only lithium compounds that contain cobalt can generate oxygen in a thermal run away event, LFP, LYP and LTO (lithium titanate) can't and won't "explode" in flames. The claims they have caught on fire is really the electrolyte boiling and venting, as silly as seeing the steam pouring out of the kettle and saying it's on fire .... well actually, get that steam hot enough and the chemical bonds will break creating a perfect mix of hydrogen and oxygen and create an explosion that has to be seen to be believed .... but you won't see dramatic headlines about how dangerous steam kettles are will you? :lol:

Rant over, I just get a tad worked up when I see claims about the dangers of lithium batteries exploding and them all being lumped into the "Lithium ion" classification ... that is just like saying all chemical batteries are the same, a never ready is the same as a start battery is the same as an AGM battery is the same as an Edison battery and the same as a NiMh battery ... they aren't, are they ..... I'll take my medication and go to bed now :lol:

T1 Terry

 

[Big Ears]

Lithium can explode of course, but not as often as is reported, makes me think perhaps bad maintenance or being messed with or simply driver abuse.

 

[Rolfe]

You need to understand the difference between lithium as the pure metal and lithium ions, that is the salts of lithium. It's maybe easier to understand if you think about the difference between sodium metal and the salt you put on your chips. We all did the thing at school where the teacher makes everyone stand back and wear safety goggles while she puts a tiny slice of sodium metal (kept under oil to stop it from going banjax) into water and we watch it fizz away in a spectacular exothermic reaction. And we know that's not going to happen when we put salt (sodium chloride, the ionised form) on our chips.

A lot of the negativity generated in certain quarters about lithium is propagated by people looking at the properties of lithium the metal, which like sodium and potassium is right over there on the left side of the periodic table of the elements with a valency of one. All these things will go off pop pretty readily given half a chance. But here's the thing. The more unstable the element the more stable the salt. These metals ar desperate to ionise into their salt forms, and once they've managed to do that they do not want to move. Lithium (and sodium) are in their ionised - salt - form in batteries, and not at all liable to do what the pure metal will do.

Sorry, just wanted to get that out of the way. Whether or not a battery can do unpleasant things isn't really to do with the lithium as such, it's a property of the whole battery chemistry and how easy it is for the stored energy to get out of control.

Thanks for that explanation about LFP, Terry. I'm a bit fed up with people telling me how any battery can explode and go into thermal runaway and I shouldn't get so complacent about my LFP pack. But hey, I now have two LFP packs sitting in my garage - the one in the car and the one I use to power my house between sunset and sunrise. And I'm a lot less bothered about them than I probably should have been about the tanks full of petrol that were there in a bygone age, if only I had understood the risks.

 

[Rolfe]

They keep bringing out EV Motorhomes ...

I didn't even know that was a thing. I have always thought EV was the way to go for campervans/motorhomes, because you'd just run everything from the battery and not have to worry about calor gas and so on. But, and it's a big but, you'd need an absolute beast of a battery to do it. I was thinking that now they have batteries that can run HGVs it must be getting practical to have batteries that will run campervans. But from what you say they haven't really cracked it yet.

I don't think campervan sites are going to be installing chargers until there is demand from people who have the things, and if the ones available aren't good then that's not going to be happening much. But once the vans are available the charging points will follow.

Bear in mind that for the first 10-15 years of ICE cars there were no petrol stations at all. People managed somehow. The fuel supply didn't get sorted until the demand was there.

 

[Big Ears]

Indeed it is a thing sort of, but consider the use of one, I'm NOT knocking EVs (Hope that has sunk in by now) but they do have range issues, We drive from home direct to Skye or Ireland or France in one shot, some will stop two or three times on the way and an EV will probably be ok for them, plus they have electrickery on board to power a hob, microwave or kettle etc so in some ways a cracking thing, but the gremlin is weight versus payload.

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A 3.5t van is put there but most are these things and not really a van you want to spend more than a few days in never mind weeks, we carry 100l of fresh water, plus maybe 25 more as bottled water for tea etc, Clothes, food, tools general stuff like chargers laptops x 2 phones x 3, tablets x 3 it adds up.

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Batteries are the killer due to weight & licence limits, a HGV just loses a couple of tons of payload (they can have savings with ally chassis, carbon fibre cabs etc to claw so weight back so is viable hence the Tesla Semi jobbie

 

[Rolfe]

Like all things, I suppose they have to start somewhere. It took quite a while for the Model T to turn into the Fiesta. If you just want mobility you'd have gone for the Model T, if you want a bit more in the way of features you'll wait for the Fiesta I imagine.

When we look at how far EVs themselves have come since the first generation Leaf, it's quite remarkable. But if people had said no, these Leafs aren't good enough we have to wait till we can build a Polestar or a Kia EV6, we probably wouldn't ever have got to the Polestar or the EV6. Sure, some purchasers will wait for the Polestar, but if the less refined versions aren't built first then they'll be waiting forever.

I just think it's too easy to criticise the early models of things, as if there'll never be anything better. I remember shellac records. Scratchy and they broke if you dropped them. The LP was starting to emerge, but it was mostly potential. I don't know. It used to be normal to be enthusiastic about the early versions of new technology, knowing that these would improve, not to moan about how they weren't good enough.

I remember the early digital cameras and how poor the pictures were. I remember a neighbour eagerly saying look this is 3 megapixels, its practically as good as film. I decided to wait till it was a bit better, but I wasn't running around exclaiming how bad digital cameras were and telling everyone who had one that they had problems and weren't for me.

Same with your mobile homes. EV mobile homes aren't ready for your needs yet. Some day they almost certainly will be. I'd rather look forward to that day than pour criticism on the early models.