Will ZS EV be the first and last EV series from MG China in the short to medium term?

[DangerousDoug]

I'm with those that simply enjoy our "bird in the hand" MG without worrying about "what I could have won". For me the reason I jumped at the MG was availability - it had a less than 3 month waiting list for build-to-order, and in fact we had our car within 2 weeks of ordering, as a cancellation came up at our dealer. Compare this with 4 months for a Tesla Model 3 (if I could have afforded one, which I couldn't!) or around 10 months for the Kia e-Niro (which we have on order, to replace my work car). As far as which manufacturers will succeed in this fast-changing EV market, it seems to me that battery manufacturing ability is absolutely key. Many great EVs have been announced, but you simply can't get hold of them because they're being sold in such small numbers, due to battery availability issues. SAIC is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world, and they make their own batteries, so they have hugh supply bandwidth and can therefore deliver cars at the required volume very quickly. I'm looking forward with interest to seeing how the MG 5 Estate will do, given that I wanted an estate - it would have been my first choice had it been availble.
I'm not wedded to the MG brand - it was simply the best car for us at the time - in 3 years, when our PCP contract comes up, I fully expect to have a much greater choice of which EV to go for next...

 

[KasEV]

@DangerousDoug,
You are very, very right. I believe we should enjoy our cars as much as possible. After all the ZS EV is not bad.
However, if I may the argument you make about battery production is the one that should make you ask why did SAIC not put an adequate battery in the ZS EV.
SAIC knew that EV car manufactures were converging battery capacity such that soon no matter the model or make or actual battery size all EVs will have a mixed WLTP range of about 250miles and real life range of at least 230. They then deliberately bring out a so called Flagship Vehicle the ZS MG EV with performance far below the obvious conversion target. Meanwhile SAIC are prepping to manufacture batteries for the other manufacturers to help them meet the conversion target but will not put it into the so called flagship ZS EV. What is even more painful by SAICs own recent proclamations putting a larger capacity battery into the ZS EV to achieve the conversion would have cost less than a 100 quid and building a battery with up to 3 times capacity of what in the ZS EV may cost only about £2500 more than it cost for the current ZS EV battery. So why on earth is a better battery not in the flagship ZS EV.
Talking about the MG5EV well it is just a discarded 2018 General Motors platform which looks like it will be behind the EV development curve just like the ZS EV.

 

[Paulie68]

@DangerousDoug,
You are very, very right. I believe we should enjoy our cars as much as possible. After all the ZS EV is not bad.
However, if I may the argument you make about battery production is the one that should make you ask why did SAIC not put an adequate battery in the ZS EV.
SAIC knew that EV car manufactures were converging battery capacity such that soon no matter the model or make or actual battery size all EVs will have a mixed WLTP range of about 250miles and real life range of at least 230. They then deliberately bring out a so called Flagship Vehicle the ZS MG EV with performance far below the obvious conversion target. Meanwhile SAIC are prepping to manufacture batteries for the other manufacturers to help them meet the conversion target but will not put it into the so called flagship ZS EV. What is even more painful by SAICs own recent proclamations putting a larger capacity battery into the ZS EV to achieve the conversion would have cost less than a 100 quid and building a battery with up to 3 times capacity of what in the ZS EV may cost only about £2500 more than it cost for the current ZS EV battery. So why on earth is a better battery not in the flagship ZS EV.
Talking about the MG5EV well it is just a discarded 2018 General Motors platform which looks like it will be behind the EV development curve just like the ZS EV.

Think yourself lucky you haven't got a new Mini EV, range is 100 miles on a good day!

 

[KasEV]

That is true. Quite expensive for the little it gives.

 

[Stuart Wright]

The reason why I started this forum is because I thought the MG ZS EV was the first decent quality, affordable electric car which would capture the budget market.
If, in 2017, I could have afforded a Tesla, I would have bought one instead of the Hyundai Ioniq. Largely because of the charging infrastructure and Tesla's maturity in the market. I love my Ioniq, but the state of the UK charging infrastructure has been a PITA for sure.

Now, if I could afford a Model Y, I would get one over any other electric car. (Having seen Sandy Munro break down the Model Y vs the Model 3, I'd never buy a Model 3).
So in my opinion, if any electric car is going to compete for EV market share, it's doing so against Telsa on price.
The top end new Nissan Leaf, for example, is the same price as the lowest spec Model 3. Who in their right mind would choose the Leaf (with bad thermal battery management for a start)?
The top end VW ID.3 vs a Tesla? Tesla.
Would I buy the Audi e-tron or Jag i-Pace over a Model Y? Nope.

So if MG want to capture more EV market, they have to be priced a few grand below the price of a Model 3 at least.

Fantasy land, but if Tesla produced a decent quality, 200 mile EV, using their charging infrastructure and costing £10,000, no other EV manufacturer would get a look in.

My opinion only.

 

[Asparagus next left]

KasEV,

You are so right.

I'm seriously considering buying a ZS EV, and would have placed my order before now if it had had a few more miles under the bonnet.

MG have definitely missed a trick, a larger battery would have seen them with a longer waiting list like other manufacturers are enjoying.

I suspect that they will up grade it this time next year when a lot more EV models will be brought to market

 

[Stuart Wright]

Auto manufacturers are balancing range and price and some are getting it right and some are getting it wrong.
I think MG got it about right with MG ZS EV as the range is absolutely fine in most scenarios.
Honda have got it wrong with the e, I think. £26,160 in the UK, including the £3500 plug-in grant. That's too much for a car with only maybe 110 miles real world range.

 

[DangerousDoug]

My son-in-law has a Model 3, as of mid-March, and I've had a lot of opportunities to see the car in real world scenarios. I absolutely agree with Stuart that any manufacturer of EVs will always be compared to Tesla, who have proved what can be done. If the MG had been upwards of £30, and/or had longer waiting time, I'd certainly have gone for either a model 3 or held out for an e-Niro. As it was, the MG was at the right price and at the right time. We've been enjoying electric motoring now for 6 months, whereas we would have been struggling on with our dirty smelly old fossil cars if it hadn't been so.
As I said before, I'm not loyal to the MG brand - not at all. In December 2019, when we went on the hunt for a new car, they were the only game in town at that price point, and youtube reviews all made that point. However a year on (think December 2020) the EV market will have radically changed and MG will have to try VERY hard to maintain their sales as more cars come into that space. If they stay where they are, they'll quickly get outpaced by the big boys entering this space (and of course, the huge wildcard - will Tesla bring out a sub-£30K car - if so, it's game over for just about everybody!!!).

 

[Kithmo]

I think it depends what you want to do with your EV. If it's often used for longer journeys, to replace ICE cars, then yes maybe they have missed the point. But I believe that the main strength of EVs is the city driving with many short journeys that kill ICE cars and pollute and MG have got it just right for that, 6-7 hours for a full charge on a 7kWh home charger, which can be done overnight is plenty good enough. The MG of course has also addressed the problem of longer (maybe not epic) journeys by adding the CS charging socket, so you have the option if need be.

 

[Asparagus next left]

Agreed, it's horse's for courses. However, the point I was making is with a few extra miles they could have straddled both camps. Especially if, as Kesev suggested that the additional expense was the cost of a good quality type 2 lead.

This will be the only family vehicle and 98% of the time its going to be great. However, the occasion when I need it for a winters 270 mile ride the thought of two chargers with some range anxiety at the other end, is knocking my confidence.

I also don't buy the Tesla argument, the price point is the price point at any moment in time, and anyway, if I wanted technology to cook your breakfast I'd buy a frying pan.

 

[Paulie68]

My son-in-law has a Model 3, as of mid-March, and I've had a lot of opportunities to see the car in real world scenarios. I absolutely agree with Stuart that any manufacturer of EVs will always be compared to Tesla, who have proved what can be done. If the MG had been upwards of £30, and/or had longer waiting time, I'd certainly have gone for either a model 3 or held out for an e-Niro. As it was, the MG was at the right price and at the right time. We've been enjoying electric motoring now for 6 months, whereas we would have been struggling on with our dirty smelly old fossil cars if it hadn't been so.
As I said before, I'm not loyal to the MG brand - not at all. In December 2019, when we went on the hunt for a new car, they were the only game in town at that price point, and youtube reviews all made that point. However a year on (think December 2020) the EV market will have radically changed and MG will have to try VERY hard to maintain their sales as more cars come into that space. If they stay where they are, they'll quickly get outpaced by the big boys entering this space (and of course, the huge wildcard - will Tesla bring out a sub-£30K car - if so, it's game over for just about everybody!!!).

It's a given we are getting a smaller, lower cost Tesla, 100%, the only question is when. Tesla are going to be building factories furiously for years to try and keep pace with exponential demand, so I'd think we won't see it here for about 4-5 years earliest.

 

[Paulie68]

Whilst I've so far not needed anything over the range the ZS has in one journey, Psychologically, I think I would have bought a 60kWh version anyway had it been offered for up to an extra £2,500. Any more than that though, I wouldn't. For what that's worth!

 

[KasEV]

Hi Folks,
I think we are all on the same page regarding range. Some EV insides think MG has tried to move unto this page with the MG 5EV so we have to await and see.
In general some analyst are working hard to predict price, acceptable range, once a week charging and space in an EV for a family with 2.4 children.
Unfortunately some blame these same analysts for the short range we currently have in that they keep telling manufacturers that EV owners are city dwellers who do not care much about a range so far as it covers their daily commute.
The analysis is now moving fast to daily commute plus leisure activity and this will slowly increase range.
Some such as Tesla are said to be ahead of the game aiming for a convergence to more efficient batteries with larger batteries and higher range just because it will otherwise be impossible to convert all new vehicles to electric in the next 2 decades as planned.
On the whole ZS EV is not bad but as we have all said it could be far better.
My EV boffins keeps telling me we should all count ourselves lucky because the first ICE that where produced were so slow, travelled only a walking distance and had to have someone walking on foot in front dispersing pedestrians as there were no traffic regulations in those days. Tech as moved on since so we can surely hope for better.

 

[Kithmo]

Agreed, it's horse's for courses. However, the point I was making is with a few extra miles they could have straddled both camps. Especially if, as Kesev suggested that the additional expense was the cost of a good quality type 2 lead.

They've addressed the type 2 lead situation now, it's free since 1st July.

My EV boffins keeps telling me we should all count ourselves lucky because the first ICE that where produced were so slow, travelled only a walking distance and had to have someone walking on foot in front of it dispersing pedestrians as the was no traffic regulations in does days. Tech as moved on since so we can surely hope for better.

Milk floats, and some people still think they are.

 

[DangerousDoug]

Regarding range and market acceptance, I think the two most important factors are: do you have home charging and is this your primary or second car. If you have home charging, then having the car full every morning makes a HUGE difference to range acceptance. A 100mile range car (eg mini electric) would be fine if you only drive 80 miles in a day. However, if you're only able to charge at public points, only needing a charge once a week should be considered a requirement. Also, if the car is being purchased as a "second car", those occasional long distance trips don't exist, as you'll be using the primary car for this. We delayed replacing my wife's car (an ageing Skoda Fabia) for a couple of years as we wanted to go fully electric but felt we needed a car with a range of 200miles+. The MG came up with 160 miles range and we jumped at it for price and availability reasons. In the 6 months and nearly 7000 miles of motoring, we've been absolutely delighted with the car (Bongs accepted!!) as it almost never has to travel more than 100 miles in a day (we have home charging). It's even replaced my big volvo V70 as our primary car, since the volvo has been SORN'd during lockdown. Once I start travelling for work again, I'll need a long range car once more, but by that time the e-Niro will have arrived to replace the volvo (finally an all-electric family - hoorraayyy!!). The MG would not make a suitable work car for me, as most of my journeys are 100miles+ each way. But as a second car, it's absolutely ideal!
The point I'm making here is that if the MG had been a few thousand more expensive due to a larger battery pack, we would not have bought it, but instead would have held out for the e-Niro (a much better car, but more expensive). As it is, the MG fits a market slot ideally, with range and price fairly well balanced (IMHO).

 

[DangerousDoug]

BTW, we live in a rural location (hence the driveway charging ) but every journey is at least 15 miles round-trip (nearest town is 7 miles away). My wife's work takes here sometimes up to 40 miles each way and covering around 12,000 miles a year. Swapping out an ageing ICE car for the MG electic was a net cost saving for us, as well as a hugely more pleasurable driving experience!! So IMO cars like the MG are not simply city commuters, but mainstream ICE replacements (Yaay!!)

 

[Chrispydoc]

Once you start going down the EV route, its difficult to justify using any ICE car (unless its Classic for occasional use).
We still have our PHEV hybrid, but it hardly gets any use.....the thought of that 2ltr petrol engine kicking in after 28 miles annoys the heck out of me. And now i've cracked my 155 mile trip to Norfolk in the MG, I'm a happy bunny.

Getting back to the original thread...I recon we will see plenty more EV's from China, but the current political situation is certainly not going to help.

 

[DangerousDoug]

I agree, Chris. China is one of the lead markets in the world for EVs (Norway is furthest ahead, but too small to affect the behaviour of "big auto") whereas China is exerting global influence in the car market. There are several large chinese manufacturers taking EVs seriously, due to the demands of their home market, so I think we'll see a lot of new chinese vehicles arriving on the international scene over the next couple of years. SAIC are one of those and my impression is they've been buoyed up by the success of the ZS EV. My personal feeling is that they'll have to greatly raise their game in the software department as alternatives from VW etc. start arriving later this year and early next year. The MG is mechanically excellent, but the software is WAY behind others (frustratingly, if they'd only given us in Europe what they already ship in Thiland, we'd all be very happy!! ;-))

 

[Chrispydoc]

Agreed...but VW have also a lot to learn about software....apparently they have fields full of cars they cant yet sell (unless its changed very recently) But as you say, MG have it available and didn't use all of it.

 

[DangerousDoug]

Yes, VW are learning a very hard lesson - that car companies need to transition to be software companies, and the transition for established "big auto" is very hard indeed. The EV startups (Tesla most obviously) started as software companies, recruiting good software engineers as a core starting strategy. The likes of Ford, GM, VW etc trying to attract the best software brains when exciting startups like Tesla beckon, is going to be really hard for them.... as VW is clearly demonstrating