Impact of KERS on tyre wear

Thought KERS was like engine braking on an ICE car..?
Yes. The point being that using KERS means that the brakes get little use. With your extremely low driving distance, the rotors might rust and perhaps even stick to the rotors, causing problems. But that seems like a long shot to me too.
 
Yes. The point being that using KERS means that the brakes get little use. With your extremely low driving distance, the rotors might rust and perhaps even stick to the rotors, causing problems. But that seems like a long shot to me too.
As I said, I've only had MOT brake failures on cars that were getting little use. Rusted discs on both occasions. Obviously it is extremely unlikely the disc pads have worn down but I'm wondering if there has been a misunderstanding of what is wrong.

Has the car been adapted for disabled use? Could the adaption be causing the brakes to be in operation all the time?

Not really enough information to comment.
 
from what I've seen of some workshops, I wouldn't trust anything that sounds remotely unreasonable. Get another opinion first.
It is possible to see brake pad wear on some cars without disassembling anything, but don't know if that's the case with the MG
 
As I said, I've only had MOT brake failures on cars that were getting little use. Rusted discs on both occasions. Obviously it is extremely unlikely the disc pads have worn down but I'm wondering if there has been a misunderstanding of what is wrong.

Has the car been adapted for disabled use? Could the adaption be causing the brakes to be in operation all the time?

Not really enough information to comment.
The car is a standard exclusive model, though if my mobility condition gets any worse it will require hand controls.
The disks don’t look too bad from the through-the-wheel view and I do test them before I start off and never had a break failure or nasty noise coming from them. Part of my journeys out take in a 50Mph A-road, just to stretch performance really. Passed its MOT last month with flying colours…

It just amazes me that I also have a problem with my 12V - not surprising really, considering the lack of time the car spends in READY mode, and I have a 24/7 OBD port telematic plug-in too, which may not be helping. It’s just that servicing doesn’t pick this up - even though you get a low 12V warning before you boot the engine!
It’s the old problem which I thought would be cured by my home charger (Zappi 2) but I suspect I’ll need to put a 12V battery maintainer on it - if that doesn’t work, I’ll buy a new battery.
And do a few more miles! ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think there is a software update that charges the 12V to a higher voltage. (see various Tesla supercharger threads) However, if your car is over three years old the EVCC may not take the software update without an expensive hardware replacement.
 
I think there is a software update that charges the 12V to a higher voltage. (see various Tesla supercharger threads) However, if your car is over three years old the EVCC may not take the software update without an expensive hardware replacement.
Thanks for that - I’ll ask at my next service but don’t have much hope they’ll even know about it. Plus software/firmware updates seems to take their mechanics days to perform - like the BMS/Comfort update - took 2 days and they eventually made it FOC (not the £60 they were going to charge me) - Glyn Hopkins East London before anybody asks…
 
I would have thought that slowing down is slowing down and wears tyres out regardless which method you use (brakes or KERS). Surely it should depend upon the severity of the braking which can be controlled in both cases by whether you stamp on the brakes or by being gentle and progressive, and in the KERS situation if you take your foot off the accelerator suddenly or ease it off gradually.
 
Nice one! It’s only town/urban travel - most 6-8 mile trips into town on Eco mode so KERS 3 all the way or normal mode if I forget to change it over.
Thought KERS was like engine braking on an ICE car..?
So they said pads are finished or need replacing due to who knows what they will invent ? I am at 93k kms and front brakes are still fine and rear are like new , so definately they are talking bolloks
 
I have noticed a difference in the mi/kWh figure when doing the same journey on the motorway between Kers 1 and 2 you get a better figure with Kers 1 as when you take the foot off it doesn't slow as much compared to Kers 2. Maybe it doesn't take much energy to get back up to 70 so better figures.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why are you taking your foot off?
It should only make a difference if you don't need to slow down.
On our motorways there's always much traffic and slowing down and accelerating is common, nothing to do with not being aware or not allowing enough of a gap etc etc.
If you can drive on a motorway without ever slowing I congratulate you. :)
 
No even on our motor ways there's the occasional slow down and speed up, But unless you slow down more with regen than you would with the brake. I can't see how there can be a worse out come with 2 than 3.
3 is going to put more energy back into the battery than 2 so should give a better outcome. That's the whole purpose of it, to save braking energy instead of throwing it away.

It's only if you are slowing more than you need, that a possible worse outcome should occur.
If that's the case practice easing your foot off more gently.
 
First thing is that KERS is not 100% efficient. Only about 90% (it can vary but is in that ball park) end up in the battery for reuse. When that energy is reused to accelerate the car, there is a similar 90% loss so the actual amount of energy that is recovered and reused is 81% for the store and use route. However that 90% is only the 90% of braking energy from regen.

Low levels of regen generate charge currents around that of an AC charger. High levels can easily reach that of a DC DC charger! This also affects how much of the energy can actually be stored in the battery.

A 2800 kg car at 100km/h is equivalent to 0.3 kW over a one hour period. The car is braking over 4 seconds so that works out at 0.3*60*60/4 = 270 kWh over that 4 seconds. It is like plugging into a DC charger that immediately goes to a 270kW charging rate. Not good. The car cannot accept that level of charge instantly being applied so the regen is reduced and the discs and pads slow the car by converting it to heat. This reduces the recovery efficiency to something like 10 to 20%.

The biggest regen current I have seen on my MG5 is 200A which at 400V is 80kW and that was fleeting. It probably averages around 20kW or less over the four seconds. That means from that 4 second 100km to 0 brake, only around 10% of the total energy is recovered. And using the foot brake at the same time. The conclusion is that regen is not that efficient in such cases because it is not solely responsible for the braking. It is surprising the number of drivers that then assume that regen captures 90+% plus of energy when it doesn't. Last minute braking is an inefficient in an EV as in an ICE.

When EV manufacturers quote 90% energy recovery through regen when braking, that does not mean that regen recovers 90% of all the available energy but that when regen is solely used, it can recover 90% of the energy into the battery. It ignores the 90% loss to use it again. It also ignores the losses caused by using the foot brake.

Big difference.

So the key is making sure that braking is kept to an absolute minimum. This requires driver anticipation and that is more important than what KERS setting is etc. Given that a stop is anticipated:
  1. Coasting is most efficient i.e. current is zero which may require a little throttle to overide the KERS setting.
  2. Next is regen at the appropriate level to give just the required amount. i.e lift off.
  3. Finally foot braking.
PS the braking method makes no difference to tyre wear.
PPS Cruise control uses the mechanical brakes to adjust the car speed so can be less efficient.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A 2800 kg car at 100km/h is equivalent to 0.3 kW over a one hour period.
Kinetic energy:
E = ½mv² = 0.5 x 2800 x (100,000/3600)² = 1.08 x 10^6 J = 300Wh = 0.300 kWh. So yes that's equivalent to 0.3kW for an hour. A bit of a weird way to put it.
The car is braking over 4 seconds so that works out at 0.3*60*60/4 = 270 kWh over that 4 seconds.
4 seconds to or from 100km/h is pretty quick, i.e. quite high acceleration or deceleration. I guess drag and rolling resistance help braking helps braking slightly, but let's ignore that for simplicity.

Power is energy per time = 1.08MJ/4s = 1080kJ/4s = 270kW.

270kWh of energy is way more than the battery's capacity.

So yes, if you were to decelerate from 100km/s over just 4 seconds, that would require 270kW of power, probably more than the battery can take, and possibly at the limit of what the mechanical brakes and tyres can handle as well.

Edit: Your point stands, of course. Severe braking like that is indeed inefficient. But how often do we decelerate that hard?
 
Last edited:
I think we are in violent agreement in that the amount of energy is the same, but the rate that it is lost changes depending on the time it takes to do it.

The example assumes around 1G braking which is about the limit for most road car tyres. Double the time and you still get large charging rates for the small time that the car takes to brake. I choose 4 s as that is a typical time period that is recommended for car seperation. the old 1 and 2, 2 and 2, 3 and 2 figures.

Yes the kWh charging rate is larger than the battery capacity but it is not a like for like comparison. The difference is that the kinetic energy period is for 4s but the battery capacity is assumed to be for one hour. Without this information, the amount of energy available is very very different.

This why I like the original 0.3kWh value as that is then obviously very small compared to a 60kWh battery. The amount of energy is small but the charging rate is bigger!

This rate is the important one as that in turn defines the maximum charging current available over that short time period which in turn defines how much can be recovered. And why the recovery percentage is so low.

As for brakes not coping. The first limit is tyres typically but equally the biggest problem is heat. Brakes need some heat to operate optimally which is why cold brakes are often not as good as warm/hot ones. However the heat has to go somewhere and the brakes heat up and can reach a point where the hydraulic fluid causing vapour lock e.g. soggy brakes and the pad material can glaze so it doesn't grip as well the result is brake failure. Isolated hard barking is fine but repeated hard breaking like on a track day for example can result in pedals through to the floor and crashes as a result.

While we all hope that we don't have to do a maximum stop, the velocity squared term makes the energy exponential, so very small speed increases can cause huge huge increases so what is relatively comfortable stops from higher speeds still end up with high charging rates that can't be fully recovered.
 
Yes the kWh charging rate is larger than the battery capacity but it is not a like for like comparison.
? Charging rate is in kW, not kWh. So certainly not a valid comparison.
This why I like the original 0.3kWh value as that is then obviously very small compared to a 60kWh battery. The amount of energy is small but the charging rate is bigger!
Ah, makes sense. The battery has the capacity to absorb something like 200 such stops, but only if the stops are much slower.
 
Put simply, KERS 3 around town, KERS 1 on motorways and fast roads, most efficient. :)


???
 
Why exactly is it most efficient?
Because it gives best results for me, did you see the question marks, or do you just like to question everybody else's comments?
Why exactly isn't it most efficient ?
 
Support us by becoming a Premium Member

Latest MG EVs video

MG Hybrid+ EVs OVER-REVVING & more owner feedback
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom