Impact of KERS on tyre wear

Because it gives best results for me, did you see the question marks, or do you just like to question everybody else's comments?
Why exactly isn't it most efficient ?
Tetchy

I was just curious and open minded why it would be more efficient, thats all.

Dont bother explaining, not a problem.
 
Put simply, KERS 3 around town, KERS 1 on motorways and fast roads, most efficient. :)


???
That is a good starting point and obviously works well for you. I tried it initially and didn't like it - I just use the default 2 - but that is my preference and nothing to do whether it was more efficient or not.

However driver comfort makes for more efficient driving so while it might not be the ultimate, it is for me. In the same way that yours is for you. No real right or wrong. Just avoid the hard braking and coast as much as safely possible and it will be pretty efficient from a KERS point of view.
 
Because it gives best results for me, did you see the question marks, or do you just like to question everybody else's comments?
Why exactly isn't it most efficient ?
I think it is because the KERS setting doesn't affect efficiency. It only changes how much kers is used by lifting the accelerator. If you need to slow down you can do it with the accelerator in KERS3 or with the brake pedal in KERS1, as long as you aren't braking hard then the car uses the same amount of KERS in either situation.
 
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I think the only way to put this topic to bed is to do an experiment and use live data from an OBD scanner and plot the relevant parameters while doing the same routine using different KERS settings.

Driving at a certain speed and taking the foot off the accelerator isn’t going to reveal any surprises, therefore I’m open to suggestions on how best test the various theories?
 
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The wind speed and direction is probably going to make repeatability pretty tricky. Got any big tunnels near by?
 
Most efficient for what exactly. I don't see how it can be more efficient for mi/kWh, if you're putting less energy back into the battery but using the brakes more.
If you aren't using the brakes, I'd guess you're slowing down too much, by not being subtle enough with the right foot.

So, is "KERS" different to "REGEN"?
Because on my MG4 it's labeled as regen, and I think the various levels control how much energy is fed back into the battery, not how much it affects the accelerator pedal. If I'm using the brake pedal I'm usually not in a good situation to look at the power numbers to see how much -ve there is, But I think there's less regen with lower levels.
 
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Kinetic Energy Recovery System and Regenerative Braking are one and the same. Regen level 3 is the default in the MG4. I have experimented with all 4 (1, 2, 3, & Adaptive) & leave it on 3. 1 isn't much different from an ICE engine at slowing the vehicle, 2 is noticeably stronger & 3 will slow the car very quickly. The regen % shown on the screen & 3 maxes out at about 25%.

I use One Pedal driving around town & this uses the friction brakes a bit as it will bring the car to a complete stop whereas with the other options the car will still creep. OPD also shows about 25% as the max regen % but as the car slows considerable faster & comes to a stop my assumption is that the friction brakes are applied as determined by the OPD software.
 
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So do they both use the brake pedal to set regen level at low regen settings?

The manual says OPD it will apply the parking brake at stop. But the friction brakes could come on before that, I'll see if I can find out.
 
I think the only way to put this topic to bed is to do an experiment and use live data from an OBD scanner and plot the relevant parameters while doing the same routine using different KERS settings.

Driving at a certain speed and taking the foot off the accelerator isn’t going to reveal any surprises, therefore I’m open to suggestions on how best test the various theories?
The quality of that data is not good enough I'm afraid to get to the level of accuracy to be definitive. One issue is that there is a delay between the data actually occuring and the data being displayed which makes it hard to correlate it with other inputs.

The car system is also brake by wire using an iBoost which means the pressure you apply on the pedal is not necessarily the pressure applied on the brake calipers. The brake position and other data is fed into a "stability system" and this controls the amount of mechanical assist and also the amount of regen. The next thing is that you need a "British Standard Idiot" to drive the car in exactly the same way and weigh the same amount. The runs need to be repeated in both directions to negate inclines and wind speed and direction. Tyres need to be at exactly the same temp and pressure.

Given that, using the motor voltage and current screen gives a indication of the efficiency. As does the short journey mi/kw screen. They can be used for a bit of experimentation but be careful you can easily get distracted! Yes it is fun trying to get the best, but it is not definitive answer.

My first EV which I converted myself was instrumented to the hilt for some post grad work I was doing to look at exactly this question, and to enable me to make it efficient as possible. It data logged anything I could think off. Battery cell voltages charging currents, etc etc. It was measuring cell voltages 5 times a second for example. I could program the KERS charging current so that it was constant or a max or min value.

The biggest efficiency factors I experienced over about 20,000 miles were:
  • Altitude difference between origin and destination. One trip I could get over 8 mi/kW in one direction and struggle to get 3 or 4 in the other. 200ft difference in height.
  • Wind speeds which if high would reduce the amount of KERS needed to slow the vehicle down and increase it in the other direction.
  • The amount of mechanical braking. I had a twin cylinder circuit with no servo so that was easy to measure.
  • The charging rate of the KERS energy recovery with slower being better for efficiency.
  • The weight of the vehicle. Heavier means more kinetic energy to recover but more energy to get it moving.

I think it is because the KERS setting doesn't affect efficiency. It only changes how much kers is used by lifting the accelerator. If you need to slow down you can do it with the accelerator in KERS3 or with the brake pedal in KERS1, as long as you aren't braking hard then the car uses the same amount of KERS in either situation.
Lets get away from treating KERS as an amount. KERS is a name to describe which multidimensional map is used to calculate the amount of current that is generated by the motor in generation mode. It is a profile/preference nothing more. MG don't supply kilograms of KERS.

Also define what is efficiency? For most people it is about getting the most miles per kWh, i.e. driving a longer distance. So that means how much energy is used/recovered to slow the car and how does that change the distance travelled.

The most efficient situation is where there is no braking of any kind and the amount of power used is just enough to overcome wind resistance etc to maintain a speed. If the definition of efficiency is distance travelled per kWh, then the more braking, the more that is reduced and the less the efficiency.

If a car is in a kers profile 3 which is aggressive, it will slow down quicker and in a shorter distance. It will recover some of the energy but equally it now has to spend that energy to continue at the slower speed to the final distance acheived by the KERS 1 car. The KERS 1 profile is calmer and will take a longer time to slow but covers a longer distance and does not need to provide additional power to get that speed and distance. That is a major difference for a start.

Both have reduced the kinetic energy by the same amount as they have slowed to the same speed, but the Kers1 car has travelled further and this gives a better efficiency. Is the KERS - sorry energy recovery - the same? Well no. With the KERS3 example. the recovered energy is used to maintain the lower car speed until it has travelled the same distance that the KERS1 car does. This energy capture and use is not 100% efficient so there is an immediate loss there. The KERS1 car retains its recovered energy because it doesn't need to use the it like the KERS3 car does and can use it to travel further unlike the KERS 3 car which uses it to travel the additional distance that the KERS1 car did.

The amount of energy recovered may be the same but the KERS3 car has to use it to cover the same distance that the KERS1 car did. Are the KERS profiles the same? no. Can the driver adjust the profile? Yes. There are a lot of factors involved.

In this case, the amount of energy recovered is greater with KERS3 because KERS is providing the major braking effort. However, the KERS3 car has to use that to travel the additional distance that the KERS1 car acheived. The KERS1 car has all of its recovered energy available to travel further.
If both cars recovered the same amount of energy, the KERS1 car would still be the most efficient in terms of distance travelled. So the energy recovery defined by the KERS profile does affect the efficiency but equally it depends on the particular scenario and other factors.
 
In a nutshell, the quicker your acceleration and the quicker your deceleration... and the harder you corner... the quicker your tyres wear down.
 
If a car is in a kers profile 3 which is aggressive, it will slow down quicker and in a shorter distance. It will recover some of the energy but equally it now has to spend that energy to continue at the slower speed to the final distance acheived by the KERS 1 car. The KERS 1 profile is calmer and will take a longer time to slow but covers a longer distance and does not need to provide additional power to get that speed and distance. That is a major difference for a start.

But this looks like a fallacy to me. It's forgetting the driver, who I presume is still in control of the vehicle. If the vehicle needs to stop in a certain distance, it doesn't matter which Kers level it's in. The driver is going to make it stop in that distance.
Who among us, just takes their foot off and lets the car decide how long that will take?????

Profile 3 means more regen and less brake, (if regen and kers are the same)
so should give more range, for normal driving. ie driver decides how much deceleration is needed.
If you let the car decide, an just take your foot off, that will lead to more speed loss than needed.
 
But this looks like a fallacy to me. It's forgetting the driver, who I presume is still in control of the vehicle. If the vehicle needs to stop in a certain distance, it doesn't matter which Kers level it's in. The driver is going to make it stop in that distance.
Who among us, just takes their foot off and lets the car decide how long that will take?????

Profile 3 means more regen and less brake, (if regen and kers are the same)
so should give more range, for normal driving. ie driver decides how much deceleration is needed.
If you let the car decide, an just take your foot off, that will lead to more speed loss than needed.

Yeah, it does depend a lot on the driver. Personally, after decades driving petrol cars I find I can't get out of the instinctive reaction of taking my foot off the throttle when the traffic slows down significantly up ahead (which it inevitably does with the crowding on the roads these days).

For me personally, I find the KERS 1 gives me best mi/kWh on long motorway journeys - if I use 2 or 3 I tend to slow down too much when the traffic bunches ahead of me, which wastes momentum that I could have saved.

Maybe for drivers less set in their ways it will make no difference, but for me it does.
 
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But this looks like a fallacy to me. It's forgetting the driver, who I presume is still in control of the vehicle. If the vehicle needs to stop in a certain distance, it doesn't matter which Kers level it's in. The driver is going to make it stop in that distance.
Who among us, just takes their foot off and lets the car decide how long that will take?????
It's not a fallacy. It is how many drivers worldwide drive. They anticipate when they need to slow or stop and do it gently and smoothly instead of braking hard at the last minute. What that starting level actually is depends on the driver and what the driver can comfortable control.

The driver will anticipate and let the default KERS setting slow the car. If it is not slowing down enough, the brake is applied. Same as with an ICE car. Lift off, estimate if more is needed and apply the brake. Nothing to with the car deciding which system it will use. Full driver control.

Yes there are times when a full blown stop is needed. Then it is hit the brake hard. All bets are off just stop.

It is a well known "hypermiling" technique where smoothness and the avoidance of hard acceleration and braking is rewarded with better fuel economy. EVs are no different.
Profile 3 means more regen and less brake, (if regen and kers are the same)
so should give more range, for normal driving. ie driver decides how much deceleration is needed.
If you let the car decide, an just take your foot off, that will lead to more speed loss than needed.
Profile 3 means a more aggressive initial application of energy recovery. It does not mean that it does more regen than braking compared to Profile 1. The maximum regen is limited by the amount of disc and pad braking done as this determines how much retardation on the single axle is safe to prevent the car spinning off. The charge needle will go further into the blue with braking than without it. Look at it the next time you drive. The amount of energy being recovered is increasing because the braking makes it safe to do so. I've found this to be consistent across all three KERS settings in my car.

Most people use Kers 3 in town as it is a close approx to one pedal driving. The speeds involved are slow so the amount of total kinetic energy is small compared to motorway speeds. However it does reduce the amount of brake pedal use. Most people tend to reduce it for motorways to allow a smoother slowing. I'm lazy and keep it at 2 but I tend to feather the throttle to adjust as necessary. Each to their own. Reducing the amount of hard braking and acceleration is the real key and remembering KERS or regen is not as efficient as simply lifting off and coasting which is easier to do with KERS1 than with KERS3.
 
If a car is in a kers profile 3 which is aggressive, it will slow down quicker and in a shorter distance.
Only if you take your foot off of the accelerator. Typically, I don't. I drive in KERS 3 and use the accelerator to control my speed. If I want to coast, I can still do that in KERS 3 by pressing the accelerator the correct amount to coast.
 
I'm still puzzling over the difference between the kers system and my regen system. ????
Because, I don't experience behaviour quite the same as described here.
The driver will anticipate and let the default KERS setting slow the car.
That's exactly what I meant by letting the car decide. I much prefer to control the GO pedal to slow the exact amount I want. And yes anticipating what's going on ahead is key, to a smooth, stress free and energy efficient drive. I'm totally with you there.
But it surprises me that you say most drivers just lift there foot of and let the kers setting control the car.

Yes that's what I do in an iCE vehicle just lift my foot off. But in an ICE vehicle I have to do it that much earlier. With OPD I can leave it a little later.

So a penny just dropped. If anticipation is early enough, the car could be in neutral and only slowed by friction. No other losses, but as I drive in OPD there's regen losses. But with an ICE vehicle using engine braking, none of that is recovered. And as soon as friction brakes are applied, a lot of energy is wasted.

How do I say this???
I WAS WRONG!!!!
Did an experiment today, turned regen to minimum and used the brake pedal, to my surprise, the brake pedal does control the amount of regen.
Either I'd been led astray by the salesman, or I just made a false assumption.

What you've all been saying makes sense now, sorry for doubting you. After all I'm new to this, and should listen to those with more experience.

But saying that, I'll still be using OPD all the time, I find it smoother and easier. In level one the transition between regen and friction braking isn't seamless, there' a pronounced increase in deceleration once the friction kicks in. Admittedly this was around the burbs with traffic lights, I can see why it's not recommended in this mode.
 
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......

Most people use Kers 3 in town as it is a close approx to one pedal driving. The speeds involved are slow so the amount of total kinetic energy is small compared to motorway speeds. However it does reduce the amount of brake pedal use. Most people tend to reduce it for motorways to allow a smoother slowing. I'm lazy and keep it at 2 but I tend to feather the throttle to adjust as necessary. Each to their own. Reducing the amount of hard braking and acceleration is the real key and remembering KERS or regen is not as efficient as simply lifting off and coasting which is easier to do with KERS1 than with KERS3.
Like wot I sed earlier....sort of....ish ?
 
But saying that, I'll still be using OPD all the time, I find it smoother and easier. In level one the transition between regen and friction braking isn't seamless, there' a pronounced increase in deceleration once the friction kicks in. Admittedly this was around the burbs with traffic lights, I can see why it's not recommended in this mode.
But us MG5 owners do not have a OPD option. So us drivers have to use our feet to transition between regen and friction brakes....

How do I say this???
I WAS WRONG!!!!
Did an experiment today, turned regen to minimum and used the brake pedal, to my surprise, the brake pedal does control the amount of regen.
Either I'd been led astray by the salesman, or I just made a false assumption.

What you've all been saying makes sense now, sorry for doubting you. After all I'm new to this, and should listen to those with more experience.
Apology accepted but not that you needed to. If I could give you 20 trophy points I would!
 
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Bummer, you're really missing out.
I have to say I was a bit disappointed when I found that the MG5 is a creeper but I now rather like that, as it gives you plenty of time to check if a junction is clear without having to stop completely. I normally only have to trouble the brake if I do want to come to a complete stop, KERS deals with everything else. I live in a mountainous area and I haven't found a slope that KERS can't safely deal with.
 
An interesting thread. Regarding using KERS 3, brake pad wear will be reduced.

Does anyone have a routine of using the brakes, not necessarily to clean the discs, but to work the slider pins (hope this is the correct term as I am not very mechanical) ?

My previous Lexus hybrid had seized pins due to lack of use from the previous owner. Lubricating the pins was NOT in the service schedule. It was suggested to brake hard at least once a week or put the car into neutral on a downhill slope and brake (not recommended on safety grounds perhaps?)

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Can the MG be put into neutral safely while coasting?
Neutral: Yes, I do it all the time, it just won't let you put it in reverse >1mph!! ?
It can be beneficial for saving charge, because on a mild hill, regen is awkward to balance in traffic, but neutral can achieve 1 amp. Then when you want to slow down, back to Drive, and the regen kicks in. you should use max regen as soon as the battery is low enough (96-7%)
I have achieved 202 miles in a loaded MG5 SR, with 11% battery remaining, and could probably do 210-15 miles. So 260-70 miles when I've put my LR battery in.
 
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