Intelligent Octopus Go works like a dream.

[johnb80]

Educated the uneducated who were adamant they were correct. Its behaviour like this that puts the tariff, or some benefits of the tariff, at risk for all those using it correctly.

But the selfish don't care about this and believe their gaming is justified. You were presented with plenty of evidence you chose to ignore that your beliefs and assertions were incorrect. Even to point of stating that Octopus said it was OK. Which Octopus have now taken the effort to make clear that it is not OK.

I wasn't the one promoting incorrect usage of the tariff on a public forum and passing it off as endorsed by Octopus to justify the gaming.

Andy, I apologise again for any offence, I only reiterated my experience with Octopus. I do feel bringing me to the attention of Octopus was a pretty low thing to do and others should take heed of your keeness on this matter.

I have had a chat with Octopus this afternoon following an email to me from your reporting work and Octopus confirmed that there is nothing on my account of concern. They fully accept I run mainly on off peak energy with batteries and solar and that all what I do seems to fall in with their T&Cs.

So there we go, you were right, my beliefs were wrong and maybe Octopus are starting to take an interest in people that dont follow the T&C's 100%. For everyone out there on IOG, pay more attention to the % requested.

 

[tsedge]

Wow, this whole conversation sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

If Octopus want people to use their systems in a different way they need to redesign them and make it clearer.

As for reporting people to them (if that's what happened), or contacting people because they saw this thread that's very underhand. I'll take no further part in this thread and my opinion of Octopus is much diminished. I will probably cease recommending them.

 

[Alb]

I despair for the future of mankind

 

[Stuart Wright]

I locked this thread for a time and now I've unlocked it to get clarification from @andyvee and @johnb80 and whomever else who can lend an objective, unemotional opinion on what exactly is going on.

I am an IOG user. I have a Zappi and a Tesla S.
I'm a former coder and have been involved in the design of the user interface on several applications, so I have some experience on how people will understand and interpret user interfaces like the Octopus app.

This is the Devices screen in my Octopus app.

The Charging preferences section has two options.
The Charge limit is the figure that it will aim to charge your car to. I'm making an educated guess that IOG will know what state of charge your car is at whether IOG is connected either to your charger or your car and that's how it knows when to stop charging. However, the additional information under the CHARGING EXPLAINED link

states that IOG will not go beyond you car's set battery limit.
Which logically means that if your car's battery charge limit is 100% (because it's an LFP, say), and the setting in the Octopus app is 80%, then it will charge the car to 80%. But if your car is set to 80% and you set the app to 100%, it will charge to 80% as it will hit the car's limit. I don't think that this detail is particularly relevant to the argument being had in this thread, however.

The second charging preference is the Ready by time, which will be read and understood by most people as the time that they wish the car to be ready to drive. Very few people will genuinely want their car ready to drive at 05:30. I predict that most, according to my source below, will be setting off for work at some time between 07:00 and 08:30.

I could not find any UK sources to cite (the ONS website does not return any relevant information) but I found this data from America which is not limited to car drivers: Explore Census Data

The explanation page above also states

Under Charging? We may not have the correct battery size for your car, or the correct power for your charger. You can update your settings if you disconnect and reconnect.

This is, I believe, Octopus covering their backs. IOG needs to know both your car's battery size and your charger's charge rate so that it can calculate how long it will take to charge our cars.

Example, my car has a 75kw battery and is 60% full and I have set a target of 80%.
60% of 75kw = 45kw
80% of 75kw = 60kw
Therefore IOG needs to add 60-45 = 15kw.
If it's a 7kw charger (I'm rounding for simplicity) then it will need to charge for just over 2 hours if the charge rate happens at full speed 7kw.

The guessed charge rate will be approximate because of charge curves and variances in battery state of health. I bet IOG aims to charge cars to the required % ahead of the ready time 'just in case' there is an error in the calculation of how long it will take.
And if the system is optimal, then it will continually adjust the charge rate to compensate for any differences in the actual charge rate vs the initial calculated charge rate.

So I don't see any scope to 'game' the system, here, because IOG will be charging your car within the time periods it chooses in order to get your car to the desired % charge before the ready time. (I also don't see any guarantee that this will happen, but maybe I missed that).
I'd like to know how many people have experienced their cars not reaching the desired % charge before the ready time.

One legitimate use case might be that someone works night shifts and returns home at 05:00 and plugs in and needs their car charged by 21:00. Unless they have a battery, I would expect them to unavoidably be paying the 'on peak' rate to charge the car. I wouldn't expect IOG to bend over backwards to charge their car at a cheaper rate.

So could someone please succinctly explain to me how it's possible to 'game' IOG to deliberately get cheaper electricity outside of the off peak time? I want to understand what the disagreement is in this thread and I admittedly don't have the time to read all 8+ pages.

Thanks.

 

[tsedge]

The point is Octopus don't know the SOC when it is connected to the home charger (Zappi or Ohme) because there is no way to communicate SOC through Type 2 charging to the charger. Octopus only knows the SOC if connected directly to the car.

So, the potential for what some might call 'gaming' is therefore presumably to ask for much more than you need and at a time of day when you plan to run lots of home appliances to get cheap rate electricity outside the normal time window.

However, as you state, since the app automatically sets up a schedule when you plug the car in and doesn't ask you to confirm the car's SOC each time, then it is very easy just to set to +100% or +80% and forget it because that's always more than enough.

NB: It is always displayed in the app as "+" a percentage for any charger connection, not the actual SOC as for a direct car connection.

And equally, why wouldn't you select an early time of day just in case you'll need it. For example we go swimming at 6.15am 3 days a week so I leave mine set to 5.30 even though I don't need that every day.

Then there is the question of whether it is really a problem for Octopus in the aggregate, because presumably such behaviours can be measured and predicted across the population (and then allowed for) and presumably if you are not actually charging your car because it has finished they could just drop you back to the normal rate if outside the low rate standard window.

And again, is this really 'gaming' or just making the most of what is possible?

And finally, if this is a problem why hasn't Octopus changed the app to require you to enter the right SOC each time and adding monitoring and warnings if you consistently get it wrong?

Here's what the app looks like if you connect a charger:

@Stuart Wright Hope this makes it all clear what the dispute/debate is about.

 

[Stuart Wright]

The point is Octopus don't know the SOC when it is connected to the home charger (Zappi or Ohme) because there is no way to communicate SOC through Type 2 charging to the charger. Octopus only knows the SOC if connected directly to the car.

I didn't know this. So for customers with IOG talking to their charger and not the car, it's purely the car which controls the point at which the charge stops since it sends an 'I'm full' signal to the charger which then stops. This is going to make calculating how much charge is needed and therefor how long it will take to deliver impossible to calculate, right?

NB: It is always displayed in the app as "+" a percentage for any charger connection, not the actual SOC as for a direct car connection.

Where? I don't see this. I clearly read it as a target charge % (which is much more logical, anyway) and never as the % to add. Having it as a % to add makes no sense to me at all.

And finally, if this is a problem why hasn't Octopus changed the app to require you to enter the right SOC each time and adding monitoring and warnings if you consistently get it wrong?

Because that's too much to ask of users. It has to be maximally simple as most people are too stupid and/or lazy to do it.

Here's what the app looks like if you connect a charger:
View attachment 28241
@Stuart Wright Hope this makes it all clear what the dispute/debate is about.

Right, I get it, now. So the interface is different if IOG connects to the charger.
I guess the Charge to add is the only way to do it if IOG doesn't know the state of charge.
It knows the EV's battery size and it needs to know how much to add, and this is the only way to do it. It's pretty flawed.

Octopus can't expect people to change the Charge to add percentage each time they want it to charge, so they must expect this to be inaccurate and for customers to add more than they need in order to ensure they always have enough, no matter what.

The car will stop the charge at it's max battery % level, though.
So if the car is already at 80% and has its own max % is set to 100% and you ask for an additional 80%, the car will stop the charge when it hits 100%, anyway? Having delivered the 20% to take it from 80 to 100%? And since IOG is connected to the charger, it will know when the charge stops and will then stop delivering cheap electricity?

 

[tsedge]

I didn't know this. So for customers with IOG talking to their charger and not the car, it's purely the car which controls the point at which the charge stops since it sends an 'I'm full' signal to the charger which then stops.

Correct.

This is going to make calculating how much charge is needed and therefor how long it will take to deliver impossible to calculate, right?

Which is why the UI is different (see my screenshot above) when you connect a charger, it changes to be "+X%" charge to ADD, not the target charge state.

All of this depends on users diligently putting in the correct amount by opening the app after plugging in their car and recording their current SOC or remembering it.

However, the UI was clearly designed before this feature was available and the app automatically schedules slots whether or not you update these figures every time you connect.

So the lazy path - which is the path most users will end up taking - is simply to let the thing do its job and charge whatever it needs.

I would argue that Octopus can clearly measure how often this happens because they know when the car stops charging and can adjust for it across the population and taking into account, or could contact people not using it correctly (which they have not been doing as far as I'm aware up until now).

Where? I don't see this. I clearly read it as a target charge % (which is much more logical, anyway) and never as the % to add. Having it as a % to add makes no sense to me at all.

See my photo above, the UI is different for us with chargers connected.

Because that's too much to ask of users. It has to be maximally simple as most people are too stupid and/or lazy to do it.

I agree.

I would also say if Octopus is willing to supply the energy on the original schedule (whether it is actually used to charge the car or not), then I don't really see the issue if the user uses LESS for their car and a bit more for their house during this time period, when the car usage will be the dominant energy draw for almost everyone.

 

[mg4mc]

The problem is caused by MG not allowing third parties - in this case Octopus to read the cars SoC.

For other car manufacturers eg VW, Jaguar etc Octopus can read the cars SoC and manually inputting the required amount of charge is not required, you just specify the desired end SoC. (so you see 80%, rather than the +80% with MG).

 

[tsedge]

Right, I get it, now. So the interface is different if IOG connects to the charger.

Correct.

I guess the Charge to add is the only way to do it if IOG doesn't know the state of charge.

Yes, in order to create a schedule that matches - now Octopus don't have to offer a schedule, they already reserve the right to refuse and that can happen (but I've never seen it).

It knows the EV's battery size and it needs to know how much to add, and this is the only way to do it. It's pretty flawed.

Yes, but I suppose better than having to persuade every manufacturer to open up their bespoke APIs and integrate them all.

Octopus can't expect people to change the Charge to add percentage each time they want it to charge, so they must expect this to be inaccurate and for customers to add more than they need in order to ensure they always have enough, no matter what.

That's exactly my argument - and, if you read my latest above, I argue that I don't see why it hurts them if they were willing to provide the energy at cheap rate anyway.

The car will stop the charge at it's max battery % level, though.
So if the car is already at 80% and has its own max % is set to 100% and you ask for an additional 80%, the car will stop the charge when it hits 100%, anyway? Having delivered the 20% to take it from 80 to 100%? And since IOG is connected to the charger, it will know when the charge stops and will then stop delivering cheap electricity?

Yes, this is correct. This is exactly what happens with mine:

• I leave it at +80% and 5:30am all the time
• Octopus creates a schedule that could add 80% (never failed to do this in my experience)
• The car terminates early, because it might only need 20%, 30% or whatever.
• I don't expect to get a cheap rate beyond that and it is almost always in the core fixed cheap rate hours for me anyway.

The problem is caused by MG not allowing third parties - in this case Octopus to read the cars SoC.

Yes, although it would be a huge effort to do this for every make from Octopus, I imagine they don't want that development cost - MG do not have a public API anyway (and nor do some others), so they might never cooperate anyway.

 

[mg4mc]

Agreed, it is a mess for any supplier to implement. The major shortcoming is the type 2 interface not passing the SoC. What were they thinking when they designed that! Or why did they never create a Type 2 v2 definition that included it. - another topic.

Personally, with the Ohme charger I do set the required amount each time I plug in, but the I also have the charger set to require approval, so it pops up on my phone in the Ohme app and is easy change when I approve.

 

[tsedge]

Agreed, it is a mess for any supplier to implement. The major shortcoming is the type 2 interface not passing the SoC. What were they thinking when they designed that! Or why did they never create a Type 2 v2 definition that included it. - another topic.

I believe Type 2 is both very simple and very old, there's no specific data channel, just basic line signalling. But I'm no expert on it.

v2 never happened because Chademo, CCS etc... came along instead.

It would be convenient if home chargers used CCS but then they'd be much bulkier to do DC charging or CCS would need to support an AC mode somehow.

Basically, it is all a bit of a mess. But Type 2 is extremely reliable.

Personally, with the Ohme charger I do set the required amount each time I plug in, but the I also have the charger set to require approval, so it pops up on my phone in the Ohme app and is easy change when I approve.

That makes sense.

 

[Stuart Wright]

Full disclosure, my 15kWh battery is programmed to charge between 23:30 and 05:30 and it stops at 95% charge.
Here is yesterday's graph.
Some explanation below.

Notes on the above graph:

1. My car charges at nearly 16kW and I have a 22kW Zappi to facilitate that.
2. Because of slight delays in the way the inverter operates, it actually draws some electricity during peak hours, so to avoid this, I set the battery to discharge continually at 300w during peak hours.
3. I realised late last night (when organising what to do with this thread) that I didn't have the Devices menu option in the Octopus app, so I plugged in the car and reconnected it to IOG, hence the brief peak in usage at 22:40.
4. For the solar-interested-readers, because I have panels on east, south and west roofs, I am generating from 05:30 right through to 20:30 at this time of year.

Here you can see the app for my inverter which allows me to control the charge and discharge of my battery. I settled on 1,200W charge rate to spread out the charge of the battery over the 6 hours off peak period. And discharge rate of 300W to spread out the discharge over the peak times. I'll have to tweak these as the days grow shorter.

So I'm charging my battery every night and my car when I need it and I'm exporting all my excess solar produced electricity rather than using it.
I don't feel like I'm 'gaming' Octopus at all.
And incidentally, the clever features of the Zappi are totally redundant.

 

[andyvee]

This is going to make calculating how much charge is needed and therefor how long it will take to deliver impossible to calculate, right?

Octopus can't calculate the required amount of charge for EVSE integrations. That is the whole point of the 'discussion'. YOU have to specify hoe much charge you REQUIRE. As Octopus have already confrimed, you do not just leave it set to ADD 100% of your battery capacity regardless of how much charge you actually need.

Hypothetical situation - I have a car with an 84kWh battery capacity. Not unusual nowadays. If I leave the Octopus app to set to ADD 100% charge every time I plug in, Octopus are going to schedule ~13 hours (allowing for charge losses that are factored in) of charging when I plug in.
So, lets say, I plug in at 16:30 and set an end time of 05:30. Octopus are going to start charging my car instantly and it will be at off peak (due to a loophole in the Zappi integration) all the way through to 05:30 as there will be charge slots allocated. Lets say I only needed 20% charge (roughly 2 1/2 hours charging). My car will be full at 19:00 BUT Octopus are still trying to charge my car as I told them I needed the full 100%. And are still granting me off peak electricity. Seeing as the primary objectives of IOG are to help balance the grid, spread the load from all the people charging overnight, charge at the greenest and cheapest times etc. then how is flat out charging from 16:30 to 19:00 helping achieve this? As well as the fact that you have 'forced' Octopus to grant you additional off peak electricity from 16:30-23:30 that was not required. If I had set the Octopus app correctly to Add 20% charge it is extremely unlikely that any of that charging would have happened during the peak grid demand times of 16:30-19:00 - it is likely to have happened some time during the night.

As for setting the schedule end time to 04:00 or 05:30 in order to force charging to start earlier and grant additional off peak in the early evening - this is also not helping balancing the grid etc. Its simple - set the end time to when the car will is required to be charged by and let Octopus work out when it is best to charge for the amount you actually require in as long as a charge window as possible.

If you have automations etc set up to trigger on off-peak slots, you could well be running additional high loads at these times - battery storage, ASHP etc and benefitting from the additional off-peak that was granted - which compounds the issue.

Octopus need to fix what is a fundamental flaw in the Zappi integration - you shouldn't get all these extra off-peak slots granted if the car isn't actively charging - they have the telemetry. They should also be identifying those who are regularly requesting way more charge than they actually need in order to force additional off peak slots to be allocated. They have stated they will do this, and Zappi have felt the need to issue a 'reminder' in their official help guide to IOG to not do anything that is gaming the system to force additional off-peak hours.

Because that's too much to ask of users

But they agree to it as part of the TS&Cs when onboarding ...... to set 2 things - how mmuch charge they need and by when. Its not difficult and many thousands of users on the Ohme/IOG integration seem to cope fine. Its just the Zappi users who seem to have adopted this set once to ADD 80% or ADD 100% and forget approach. This behaviour is putting elements of the tariff at risk for everyone, as shown in the links to the myenergi forum and the youtube video I posted earlier in the thread

Then there is the question of whether it is really a problem for Octopus in the aggregate

They have confirmed it is on the Zappi integration and are going to make changes to address it. They may be to the detriment of all IOG users (limiting the number of additional hours, billing excessive usage at peak rate etc have been speculated by some)

And finally, if this is a problem why hasn't Octopus changed the app to require you to enter the right SOC each time

That may also be one of the changes they consider - that a charge doesn't start unless you open the Octopus app and confirm how much charge you want to add

why wouldn't you select an early time of day just in case you'll need it. For example we go swimming at 6.15am 3 days a week so I leave mine set to 5.30 even though I don't need that every day

That's slightly different to those who are deliberately setting early times to force the charging to start late afternoon/early evening to game the system into giving them as much additional off peak as possible. The ethos and purpose of the tariff is to help balance the grid, Octopus may actually want to charge your car after 05:30 if possible rather than in the middle of the night depending on grid conditions. By setting 05:30 when you may need the car ready until say 07:30 you are denying them the opportunity to do this, and also potentially missing out on (genuine) additional off peak slots that would have been granted after 05:30.

There are a lot of myth and untruths posted in various groups and forums about IOG and how it works, this mythical concept of Octopus will only grant you charging if there is an excess of electricity on the grid being the largest misunderstanding. Octopus will never deny you the amount charge you request, unless there isn't enough time to achieve it at a flat 7kW from when you plug in.

It is fundamental to how the tariff works that users with EVSE integrations specify to a reasonable degree of accuracy (5-10%) how much charge they actually require. Otherwise the tariff isn't viable longer term as it stands.

Octopus need to sort some way of preventing the gaming, hopefully not to the detriment of those who are using the tariff correctly though and may occasionally require a full 100% charge.

there's no specific data channel, just basic line signalling.

EEBUS is an emerging standard for communication of SoC over Type 2. It is supported by VW Group EVs after a certain date (a couple of years ago?? at the most). Hopefully other manufacturers will get on board. Its basically a form of PowerLine communication.

I'm not aware of a residential EVSE in the UK that supports it yet though, which kind of makes it of little use at the moment.

I expect that will change in the next year or so from rumours I have heard from one EVSE manufacturer who currently use API connections to retrieve SoC.

I don't feel like I'm 'gaming' Octopus at all.

You aren't. You have your EV connected to Octopus and they know the SoC and are therefore scheduling the correct amount of charge and not forcing 12hrs+ of off-peak electricity.

The issue is specific to the Zappi EVSE integration (and Wallbox but that is a really small userbase in comparison). The Ohme EVSE integration has other loopholes that can be exploited like plugging in at 2pm and specifying an end time of 10pm and getting off-peak all the way through the evening peak demand period .....

 

[tsedge]

Thanks @andyvee these are useful explanations.

You are essentially stating that Octopus need to make changes to the app and use information that they already have and contact end users.

I am in favour of all that - though I prefer them to publicly contact ALL users rather than just a few.

I don't think the tariff need be at risk, surely the whole point of this is an experimental tariff and they can make changes to address this? (and should expect to).

You really can't rely on T&Cs, people never read them. They need nudges.

And we end users can't know there is a problem if there's no official communication to all.

Also I would point out knowing the SOC isn't necessarily simple:

• There may be multiple drivers in each household
• The Octopus app owner may not be the driver that day
• The driver may or not may remember the SoC
• The car may or may not have an app available to the Octopus app owner to look up SoC remotely
• It may in some cases require someone else going to the car to check after it is parked and plugged in, in order to set it right - every night.

Not sure how viable this is especially when many older people don't get on with apps.

 

[andyvee]

And we end users can't know there is a problem if there's no official communication to all.

I agree. BUT Zappi have included an explicit statement in their KB article about how to use IOG. But who reads them ... the same as Ts&Cs

The problem is there are two 'classes' of people doing this - those doing it unknowingly because it isn't crystal clear how the tariff works, and it hasn't been communicated clearly. This is the discussion I had with Octopus last week - they didn't seem to grasp that some people are doing it purely because no one has informed them that it isn't the correct way of using the tariff. They think it is clear from their app that you are specifying how much charge to Add, and therefore expect people to adjust this as required. Some simple comms would solve the majority of these users.

Then there are those who know EXACTLY what they are doing and gaming for financial gain deliberately - set to ADD 100% charge regardless and a 4am end time for example. Lots of lovely off peak all evening, get those home storage batteries charging as well..........
These are the people Octopus need to identify - it should be fairly easy from the telemetry.

What wound me up last week was the insistence that Octopus had endorsed leaving set to Add 100% regardless of how much you actually require. Which later proved to be not the case. All I did was ask Octopus if this was 'offical' advice on how to use the tariff as it was being promoted in here that it was, which they quickly responded that it wasn't.

Not sure how viable this

As i said, evidence from the Ohme/IOG FB group is that many many many thousands of users cope perfectly fine with this, and have been doing for over 2 years. Its no different to making the best of Agile tariff to charge at the cheapest times for example.

 

[tsedge]

It is interesting, before I signed up with IOG, I was on OG. I liked it because it was plug in and forget.

Before I signed up to IOG, I asked people here, did I really have to set SOC and end time every day? Because I realised that would be a pain.

The answer I got was "no, don't worry about it, set and forget".

If it does change and it is policed, I might switch back due to the hassle - or just go for fixed low rate with another provider.

As i said, evidence from the Ohme/IOG FB group is that many many many thousands of users cope perfectly fine with this, and have been doing for over 2 years. Its no different to making the best of Agile tariff to charge at the cheapest times for example.

Early adopters are always more dedicated and flexible. Mass market isn't, so we disagree on this one.

 

[Stuart Wright]

As Octopus have already confrimed, you do not just leave it set to ADD 100% of your battery capacity regardless of how much charge you actually need.

Can you cite this, please? Link to where they have confirmed it.

Octopus are going to start charging my car instantly and it will be at off peak (due to a loophole in the Zappi integration) all the way through to 05:30 as there will be charge slots allocated.

What loophole? Can you explain what the issue is with Zappis? Is there a source of this information that you can cite?

My car will be full at 19:00 BUT Octopus are still trying to charge my car as I told them I needed the full 100%.

Well no, because once your car is full, it will tell the Zappi to stop charging.

(due to a loophole in the Zappi integration)

Octopus need to fix what is a fundamental flaw in the Zappi integration

See above. I'd like more information on this, please.

But they agree to it as part of the TS&Cs when onboarding ...... to set 2 things - how mmuch charge they need and by when. Its not difficult and many thousands of users on the Ohme/IOG integration seem to cope fine. Its just the Zappi users who seem to have adopted this set once to ADD 80% or ADD 100% and forget approach.

Technically, but as you've admitted, people don't read T&Cs. Also don't tar all Zappi users with the same brush. It's some Zappi users. Accuracy in use of language avoids misunderstandings.

They have confirmed it is on the Zappi integration and are going to make changes to address it.

Could you cite this source please?

BUT Zappi have included an explicit statement in their KB article about how to use IOG. But who reads them ... the same as Ts&Cs

Ditto.

Then there are those who know EXACTLY what they are doing and gaming for financial gain deliberately - set to ADD 100% charge regardless and a 4am end time for example. Lots of lovely off peak all evening, get those home storage batteries charging as well..........
These are the people Octopus need to identify - it should be fairly easy from the telemetry.

Well, as I said above, once the car is full, IOG will know not to send more, right?

What wound me up last week

The problem last week is that you let being wound up negatively affect your tone and it wasn't a great look.
Thanks in advance for the clarification.

 

[andyvee]

The answer I got was "no, don't worry about it, set and forget".

And that was the initial post I responded to as being incorrect advice. And the subsequent adamant assertions that it was endorsed by Octopus as the correct way to use the tariff. Which it now has been confirmed by Octopus as it clearly isn't.

Early adopters are always more dedicated and flexible

The Ohme integration is at least 18mths past the early adopter stage now. I can only go by the experience of being the Admin of that FB group and 6.5k members - 95%+ 'get it' and don't see it as any hassle at all to quickly adjust the amount required. You don't need to be exact, if you need 40% and the app is set to 50% then thats not an issue. It would be an issue if you needed 20% and the app is set to 100% though and you did this every day. With the new Ohme app you can do it after you plug in as well, you don't have to do it before you plug in. But you can do that with the Zappi intgeration in the Octopus app as well.

Can you cite this, please? Link to where they have confirmed it

They went to the effort of emailing the original poster that they were not using the tariff correctly.

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

All clarified in the previous posts.

What loophole? Can you explain what the issue is with Zappis?

As per the previous posts. You can force Octopus to schedule many additional hours of off-peak by leaving the Octopus app set to Add 100% charge. And the way the Zappi billing works, even if the car has stopped charging because it is full, Octopus still bill the scheduled additional charge slots at off-peak even though they were never required in the first place.

Well no, because once your car is full, it will tell the Zappi to stop charging.

Thats irrelevant - Octopus still think you need additional charge as you told them you did. So they have allocated the charging slots that you do not require and will bill those at off peak even though the car isn't charging.

Could you cite this source please?

I already have done - Zappi themselves.

 

[Stuart Wright]

The Ohme integration is at least 18mths past the early adopter stage now. I can only go by the experience of being the Admin of that FB group and 6.5k members - 95%+ 'get it' and don't see it as any hassle at all to quickly adjust the amount required. You don't need to be exact, if you need 40% and the app is set to 50% then thats not an issue. It would be an issue if you needed 20% and the app is set to 100% though and you did this every day. With the new Ohme app you can do it after you plug in as well, you don't have to do it before you plug in. But you can do that with the Zappi intgeration in the Octopus app as well.

Still very much early adopters. People with solar and battery and EV are definitely early adopters.
It takes a commitment to spend a lot of money on an EV, charger and solar (and battery) and we're not typical. I got my first solar installation in 2015 and my first EV in 2017 and I still consider myself to be an early adopter with the new system on my (new to me) house last year. There are still relatively few houses with solar panels on the roofs.
When it comes to creating systems for people to use, you have to cater for the lowest common denominator. You can hope, but you absolutely can't expect people to be bothered to set a charge amount before each one.

 

[andyvee]

See above. I'd like more information on this, please.

Already explained in the previous posts, in detail.

Also don't tar all Zappi users with the same brush. It's some Zappi users

Fair enough - but enough that MyEnergi feel it necessary to include a section about Gaming the tariff in their official KB article on IOG. And had to communicate during the beta to the test users to tell them to stop doing it.

https://support.myenergi.com/hc/en-gb/articles/18470101583377-zappi-Intelligent-Octopus-Go#h_01HA1Y1QVRYBZRG7FVVM466X7M

negatively affect your tone and it wasn't a great look.

when faced with a user who was promoting that their (incorrect) advice was endorsed by Octopus, and was personally insulting.

TBH, this is going round in circles and I have posted quite lengthy explanations.

People with solar and battery and EV are definitely early adopters.

??? I didn't mention solar and battery in regard to Ohme EVSE users being seemingly able to adjust how much charge they require.

We are seeing a large number of first time EV owners coming onboard with Ohme and IOG and join the group. Definitely not early adopters by any means. And the vast majority 'get it' and adjust the charge they require. Some don't, admittedly.

You can hope, but you absolutely can't expect people to be bothered to set a charge amount before each one.

Agreed - but there is a world of difference between a statement that Octopus endorse leaving it set to Add 100% charge every time, it doesn't matter, and people who can't be bothered.