BMS Update?

[Lovemyev]

Not a great situation all round really.
A build up of a few factors, truly plays it's own part here in the problems I feel.
You have Tech's on one hand in some dealers, who have limited ( or very likely ) no previous knowledge of EV's prior to lifting the bonnet on the ZS EV.
The software preloaded into the car had flaws / bugs in it's design, that had not been tested enough prior to release to it's customer base.
The older type computer system at the dealers requires a complicated method of applying said updates in a over complicated fashion.
If these items are not completed correctly, it leaves certain features not working at best.
The system should run a second check and verify if ALL of the selected items have been selected and "Ticked" in the system, by running through a second check to ensure all items have been updated 100% correctly.
Remember, every dealer gets the very same download package to apply to each car.
As we have seen, when some dealers get it right, and they do, all is brilliant.
However, we have clear evidence that this does not happen this way on SOME cars.
So, where do you point the finger of blame here is the question ?.
The software updates DO work if applied correctly ( although too complicated ).
Does the problem stand between the computer and the car then ???.
Then I guess so ???.
The system should be "Foolproof" but clearly it is not !.
There is a LOT of different factors, just WHY the system has let a lot of their customers down.
If you have been lucky enough to find a really good dealer who has previous EV experienced staff on their books, then you are in good hands and therefore so is your car.
But, the other side of the coin tell's a completely different story I am sorry to say.
A good car, sometimes let down by the back up service to it's customers.
Really is a pain and a shame, it could be a LOT LOT better !.

 

[ging353]

I have finally had a response to my E mail From MG. It reads as follows>

Thank you for getting in touch with MG Motor!

With regards to the BMS Update, we can confirm it is only required for some MGs. If your
dealer has checked your vehicle and confirmed the update is not required, then your car
doesn't need an update.

We hope the above helps and thanks again for contacting us.

Kind regards,

MG Call Centre Team.

Obviously they don't seem very worried about the extra charge given to the batteries or if it is doing any harm in the future.

Now Miles from the Chorley Group says that MG Says that all cars should have the new BMS Update......Who the hell is right because the whole thing is doing my head in!!!

 

[rbpasapera]

If this BMS update is for a better battery protection, I'd go for it even though you don't have the duff BMS.

 

[Gomev]

Now Miles from the Chorley Group says that MG Says that all cars should have the new BMS Update......Who the hell is right because the whole thing is doing my head in!!!

All cars will get the update, usually at their next service, just some needed it urgently because they had the duff BMS.

 

[Lovemyev]

Now Miles from the Chorley Group says that MG Says that all cars should have the new BMS Update......Who the hell is right because the whole thing is doing my head in!!!

I asked him the following question on last Monday’s Pod Cast.
“Are cars leaving the factor NOW running on the latest ( Jan15th 2021 ) software update as standard”.
Our something very close to these words.
His responce was :-
Yes - all cars leaving the factory, will be equipped with this software.
The cars take approx three months to get here, so we should now be seeing cars coming through that AlREADY have the update applied.
But remember, some cars ( although brand new ) could have been at the dealers a while and therefore SHOULD be updated prior to delivery or customers cars when they are submitted for service work.
This is loosely what Miles had said in responce to my question.
You can check out his word for word responce in person, on the ZS EV Pod Cast from last Monday.
He also mentioned the fact, that only last Friday, MG had released a service bulletin to apply a software upgrade to the infotainment system.
This should help with the system crashing with the “Black Screen Of Death” issues.
I reported this condition in the forum and to my dealer, way back in early 2020.
NOTE :- This small USB stick update, is ONLY available for the ZS EV right now.
MG are working on a similar fix for the MG5 as well.
The ZS EV has been suffering with this issue for a good while now, so they are addressing that model first.
Which I feel is the right course of action really.
Regarding the BMS update, I truly believe that ALL dealers should be following the direction followed by other good dealers like the guys at the Chorley Group.
They ALL are issued / receive the same update information from MG at the same time, some just choose to just disregard them, is the only conclusion that I can come too ????.
Maybe they are just not confident in applying them to customers cars ??.
If this is truly the case, then they should not be classed as worthy / competent people to be displaying the MG name across there dealerships.
Sorry guys, but :-
Get with the program, or get lost !.

 

[jamesie]

My ZS EV is due it's first service in November. I have the original BMS which works fine. However, I will be asking the dealership if they will be applying the BMS and infotainment service actions. If I don't get a positive response then I will go elsewhere. If they can't follow the rules on Service Actions then I don't trust them with anything else.

 

[Gomev]

My ZS EV is due it's first service in November. I have the original BMS which works fine. However, I will be asking the dealership if they will be applying the BMS and infotainment service actions. If I don't get a positive response then I will go elsewhere. If they can't follow the rules on Service Actions then I don't trust them with anything else.

Exactly, and after all they need to do something on the service to justify the cost other than topping up the screen washer.

 

[Lovemyev]

My ZS EV is due it's first service in November. I have the original BMS which works fine. However, I will be asking the dealership if they will be applying the BMS and infotainment service actions. If I don't get a positive response then I will go elsewhere. If they can't follow the rules on Service Actions then I don't trust them with anything else.

Very wise !.
Consider asking them how many cars they have carried out the BMS update on ?.
Mine was the first car they had even done !.
But they had no option, as MG Tech was calling the shots on this one.
They where under their direct control after rendering the car completely “Dead” after replacing the drivers door wiring loom, under another service bulletin.
The BMS update was released on the same day as my car was in for service on the Friday.
The update was applied on the Tuesday after the dealer updated the data pack from the car on the Monday.
I collected the car on the Wednesday morning.
Just to say, the car was running absolutely fine prior to its first service and was running on the original factory ( 456 volts ) BMS software.
It never had the “Buggy” software installed and therefore never suffered any of the problems caused by this.
The car has covered about another 5,000 miles since the BMS update was applied in Jan 2020 and appears to be performing just as it should !.
The car is now 18 months old and has covered 12,500 miles in total.
It will be due it’s second service in Jan 2022.

 

[Gomev]

Very wise !.
Consider asking them how many cars they have carried out the BMS update on ?.
Mine was the first car they had even done !.
But they had no option, as MG Tech was calling the shots on this one.
They where under their direct control after rendering the car completely “Dead” after replacing the drivers door wiring loom, under another service bulletin.
The BMS update was released on the same day as my car was in for service on the Friday.
The update was applied on the Tuesday after the dealer updated the data pack from the car on the Monday.
I collected the car on the Wednesday morning.
Just to say, the car was running absolutely fine prior to its first service and was running on the original factory ( 456 volts ) BMS software.
It never had the “Buggy” software installed and therefore never suffered any of the problems caused by this.
The car has covered about another 5,000 miles since the BMS update was applied in Jan 2020 and appears to be performing just as it should !.
The car is now 18 months old and has covered 12,500 miles in total.
It will be due it’s second service in Jan 2021.

You missed the second service

 

[Pattolad]

Not a great situation all round really.
A build up of a few factors, truly plays it's own part here in the problems I feel.
You have Tech's on one hand in some dealers, who have limited ( or very likely ) no previous knowledge of EV's prior to lifting the bonnet on the ZS EV.
The software preloaded into the car had flaws / bugs in it's design, that had not been tested enough prior to release to it's customer base.
The older type computer system at the dealers requires a complicated method of applying said updates in a over complicated fashion.
If these items are not completed correctly, it leaves certain features not working at best.
The system should run a second check and verify if ALL of the selected items have been selected and "Ticked" in the system, by running through a second check to ensure all items have been updated 100% correctly.
Remember, every dealer gets the very same download package to apply to each car.
As we have seen, when some dealers get it right, and they do, all is brilliant.
However, we have clear evidence that this does not happen this way on SOME cars.
So, where do you point the finger of blame here is the question ?.
The software updates DO work if applied correctly ( although too complicated ).
Does the problem stand between the computer and the car then ???.
Then I guess so ???.
The system should be "Foolproof" but clearly it is not !.
There is a LOT of different factors, just WHY the system has let a lot of their customers down.
If you have been lucky enough to find a really good dealer who has previous EV experienced staff on their books, then you are in good hands and therefore so is your car.
But, the other side of the coin tell's a completely different story I am sorry to say.
A good car, sometimes let down by the back up service to it's customers.
Really is a pain and a shame, it could be a LOT LOT better !.

Its a royal balls up. PPP=PPP

 

[Coulomb]

They ALL are issued / receive the same update information from MG at the same time, some just choose to just disregard them, is the only conclusion that I can come too ????.
Maybe they are just not confident in applying them to customers cars ??.

The guy at my service centre (Moorooka MG Service, Brisbane, Australia) said that one of the updates (he didn't say which one) took 4 hours to do. I wonder if it's the BMS one, possibly because they need to get the car to a particular SOC for part of a test (wild guess). If so, it would be a pain, clogging up the workshop, and maybe they won't get paid fully my MG for the total time it takes.

Maybe updates in general have a reputation (amongst service centres that don't have a lot of experience with EVs perhaps) for taking longer than expected, so if they can fob off the customer, they're happy to do so.

This is all speculation on my part, without knowing the true story.

 

[Lovemyev]

You missed the second service

Sorry, typo error now corrected !.
Trying to type while plying “Bing” with my 3 year Old grand daughter ?.
The car will be 2 years old in Jan 2022.
Car arrived at the dealership three weeks before the Christmas of 2019.
I deferred registration and collection until the start of Jan 2020.
First service had to be done a little late on the 15th Jan 2020, due to C19 restrictions.
Back to “Bing” now ?.

 

[bloggsy]

My ZS EV is due it's first service in November. I have the original BMS which works fine. However, I will be asking the dealership if they will be applying the BMS and infotainment service actions. If I don't get a positive response then I will go elsewhere. If they can't follow the rules on Service Actions then I don't trust them with anything else.

If you don't mind Jamesie, please let us know how you get on. I'm presuming you'll be going to Frasers at Falkirk? I'm also in the same boat as you (original BMS but will be looking for them to apply the newest BMS and Infotainment updates) so you can also 'speak' for me in that if they're not going to apply the service actions, I'll be following you to another dealer!

Hopefully, they'll do what's necessary but David Wishart is one of the Directors and, when I spoke to him, he was aware of this forum and seemed a decent bloke. Maybe drop him a call/email if you get any 'resistance' from the Service Dept?

Fingers crossed! ?

Cheers

Bloggsy

 

[jamesie]

If you don't mind Jamesie, please let us know how you get on. I'm presuming you'll be going to Frasers at Falkirk? I'm also in the same boat as you (original BMS but will be looking for them to apply the newest BMS and Infotainment updates) so you can also 'speak' for me in that if they're not going to apply the service actions, I'll be following you to another dealer!

Hopefully, they'll do what's necessary but David Wishart is one of the Directors and, when I spoke to him, he was aware of this forum and seemed a decent bloke. Maybe drop him a call/email if you get any 'resistance' from the Service Dept?

Fingers crossed! ?

Cheers

Bloggsy

I bought the car from Vic Young's in South Shields so it's a toss up between them and Frasers. Probably Frasers given their location in terms of things to do while the service is happening.

However, if I can't get positive news from either of them with regards to service actions then I would go as far as Miles at Chorley. Shouldn't have to do that and I have no experience of the service departments of Vics or Frasers so will wait to see. Have to say the car was well prepped by Vics prior to picking it up.

Will let you know how I get on but it's a few months away yet!

 

[Paulie68]

The guy at my service centre (Moorooka MG Service, Brisbane, Australia) said that one of the updates (he didn't say which one) took 4 hours to do. I wonder if it's the BMS one, possibly because they need to get the car to a particular SOC for part of a test (wild guess). If so, it would be a pain, clogging up the workshop, and maybe they won't get paid fully my MG for the total time it takes.

Maybe updates in general have a reputation (amongst service centres that don't have a lot of experience with EVs perhaps) for taking longer than expected, so if they can fob off the customer, they're happy to do so.

This is all speculation on my part, without knowing the true story.

You either have entirely different updates to here in the UK (unlikely) or your dealer is full of it (most likely) as no updates take beyond about 1&1/2 hours. I suppose if they have a really slow internet connection, (like dial up!!) maybe?

 

[Coulomb]

The internet in Australia is quite poor, but I hope that that's not the reason for the slowness.

We do seem to get slightly different updates here for some ECUs, but I agree that it's most unlikely that this would be the difference.

My 6 updates were completed 7 hours after I dropped the car off. They may not have been working on it full time, of course.

 

[JodyS21]

You either have entirely different updates to here in the UK (unlikely) or your dealer is full of it (most likely) as no updates take beyond about 1&1/2 hours. I suppose if they have a really slow internet connection, (like dial up!!) maybe?

I thought (got a bad memory though) I'd seen a couple of people had said it was several hours for theirs to be updated. I guess it depends on how much needs updating.
Total guess here, but I presume the OBD2 port is not really designed for the size of data transfers that are being done in our instances for software updates?

 

[Coulomb]

I presume the OBD2 port is not really designed for the size of data transfers that are being done in our instances for software updates?

That's a great point. The CAN bus speed is 500 kbps, but you'd be lucky to get a tenth of that with other CAN bus traffic and various overheads, so call it 50 kbps. Then the data might not be transferred in binary, it might be as hex with checksums and might have to wait for acknowledgements. So divide by 5: 10 kbps, call it 1 kBps (one kiloByte per second). One of the ECUs has a 4 MB flash! (That's the R7F701402 for the instrumentation ECU). Suppose all that had to be updated at 1 kB/s; that's 4096 seconds or 68 minutes! That's just in pure data transfer time. I could easily be off by a factor of 2 or 3 in either direction with my guesstimates, but suddenly 4 hours doesn't sound out of the question. Obviously most ECUs will have much smaller flash memory than that. Then there is downloading from the Chinese server if needed, checking which other firmwares need updating, perhaps some calibrating, and that assumes that nothing goes wrong and they have to involve the factory.

 

[JodyS21]

That's a great point. The CAN bus speed is 500 kbps, but you'd be lucky to get a tenth of that with other CAN bus traffic and various overheads, so call it 50 kbps. Then the data might not be transferred in binary, it might be as hex with checksums and might have to wait for acknowledgements. So divide by 5: 10 kbps, call it 1 kBps (one kiloByte per second). One of the ECUs has a 4 MB flash! (That's the R7F701402 for the instrumentation ECU). Suppose all that had to be updated at 1 kB/s; that's 4096 seconds or 68 minutes! That's just in pure data transfer time. I could easily be off by a factor of 2 or 3 in either direction with my guesstimates, but suddenly 4 hours doesn't sound out of the question. Obviously most ECUs will have much smaller flash memory than that. Then there is downloading from the Chinese server if needed, checking which other firmwares need updating, perhaps some calibrating, and that assumes that nothing goes wrong and they have to involve the factory.

I've no experience of car ECUs, but wow I expected they'd have way more than 4MB of onboard memory.
You seem to know about this stuff, is that the sort of size the latest ECUs are that they use in cars?

I was assuming there would be way more logic programmed into these things nowadays than would fit in that amount of memory.
I've played around with ESP32/8255 etc and based on the amount of memory they usually have and its restriction, I just assumed "complicated" modern car ECUs would be a lot bigger.

I guess when you think about it....they're not doing that much complicated processing, just more monitoring input signals really and checking them against simple logic to trigger things etc.
The "self driving"/camera detection etc must be a lot more complicated and do a lot of processing though I'd have thought?

 

[Coulomb]

The "self driving"/camera detection etc must be a lot more complicated and do a lot of processing though I'd have thought?

Oh, yes. That side of things is very complex, and in Tesla cars involves a lot of specialised hardware. I saw a YouTube video on it some months ago, and it was fascinating. They were given a 100W power limit by Elon, which was a tough design limit. Worth digging up if you're interested. They may recently have changed the hardware again.

I have no idea where the MG Pilot is implemented, or what hardware is involved. On the Slack group, three ECUs have been obtained and examined. I'm interested in examining the firmware, but the encryption hasn't been determined yet.

One MG owner in Australia who also owns a Tesla model 3 says that the MG detection of speed limit signs is better in the MG. That may be partly because the Teslas get more training in the US, which doesn't use international standard speed signs.

Sat Nav map data is of course very large (11 GB for the Hyundai Kona), and would live on an off-chip flash drive.