Circular reasoning (Rolfe's solar energy system)

That's the opposite of what I was trying to do. I was trying to capture the solar and stay off the import, because I don't have my G99 yet so I'm not getting paid for the export. If your car is plugged in to the charger during the day, doesn't it assume that you want it to take the solar? As far as I can see that's how the Zappi works - but I freely admit there are things I totally don't understand about this yet.
 
That's the opposite of what I was trying to do. I was trying to capture the solar and stay off the import, because I don't have my G99 yet so I'm not getting paid for the export. If your car is plugged in to the charger during the day, doesn't it assume that you want it to take the solar? As far as I can see that's how the Zappi works - but I freely admit there are things I totally don't understand about this yet.
Yes you are right that it was doing for me what you wanted it to do for you! It was just the frustration at being thwarted that I was sharing.

I want the peak export but (currently) you don't!

To be fair it is the car that I thought I set not to charge during the peak period so the issue was actually the car forgot its settings really. Have just returned them. Perhaps it happened as a result of the service.

The frustration was that when I pressed 'stop charging on the Givenergy app it kept on starting up again a few minutes later.
 
Dragging this back on topic, I have another query. How do I stop Octopus trying to charge my car overnight?

Octopus app, under "devices". The app seems to assume that you always want a smart charge if the car is plugged in. It is impossible to set the smart charge amount to zero - the lowest available is 10%. That would be about 5 kWh for my car, but for some reason Octopus thinks it means something over 8 kWh. In self-defence I set it to the minimum, as damage limitation should this actually happen, and just as well.

Monday evening I got back with the car on about 20%, jetlagged to hell and gone. My intention was to let it pick up whatever solar was available the next day, so I plugged in, checked the Zappi was on eco+, and went to bed. What then happened was that Octopus decided I wanted that 10%, which it thinks is over 8 kWh, and set a schedule to deliver it. I didn't want it to do that, but it did it anyway, and I can see no way to stop it doing it again.

Tuesday and Wednesday I unplugged the car in the late afternoon, then plugged in again in the morning. This is a pain. Now this is Thursday and I forgot. Looking at the app, I see the damn thing now has another schedule set to charge for a couple of half-hour periods overnight. I can see no way to tell it not to do this. I'm going to have to go out there and unplug again.

People say, just leave the car plugged in on eco+ and it will graze on the excess solar. Sure. That seems to be more or less what it's doing IF I plug it in some time in the morning. But if I leave it plugged in to repeat the exercise again tomorrow without me having to intervene, Octopus is going to shove 8 kWh in there whether I like it or not.

This can't be right. What am I missing?
Welcome back!

In the app:
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Click on your profile in the top LH corner.

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Click on devices

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Click on Intelligent Octopus Go

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Scroll down to Smart Charging and switch off

Job Done!
 
That's where I'd have expected to see it. Surely it can't be so unusual for someone to want to leave the car plugged just to harvest solar.

Or they could simply enable 0% charge added as an option.
 
Oh yes. I can't see why the switch-off of smart charging isn't on the smart charging screen. I tried everything on that screen, and no joy. I would frankly never have thought of going through that sequence of screens you showed, to find the required function in fairly small print at the very bottom of the FOURTH one.

I would have phoned Octopus if you hadn't told me. Maybe I should have done that!
 
Oh yes. I can't see why the switch-off of smart charging isn't on the smart charging screen. I tried everything on that screen, and no joy. I would frankly never have thought of going through that sequence of screens you showed, to find the required function in fairly small print at the very bottom of the FOURTH one.

I would have phoned Octopus if you hadn't told me. Maybe I should have done that!
I'm sure there's enough knowledge amongst us all here to be able to cover most things. :)
 
Mine too, as it happens. Different type of phone?

I have another question, mainly aimed at John but for anyone who knows about these things.

John warned about the Zappi draining the home battery under certain conditions, if it was wired up the way mine seems to be. I'm still trouble-shooting this with my installer. However the problem I am seeing doesn't seem to be what John warned about. The Zappi never ramps up its drain from the battery. But drain the battery it does.

The thing works like a charm during the day when there is sunshine. The Zappi uses the battery to tide it over short breaks in the solar, but cuts the power to the car if there is a serious drop in generation. Once the sun has come back out the car starts charging again with no problems. The battery is also recharged and I don't think I have ever seen it drop below 95% while all this is going on.

In fact the pass-the-parcel game between the Zappi, the Eddi, the solar, the grid and the house is really elegant and clever to watch, and as I say in the middle of the day I have not seen it put a foot wrong. Take yesterday for example.

1719698300878.png


I got in about 1.30 and saw that the home battery was at 100% and the hot water tank was up to temperature and export was going on. So I plugged the car in and let it get on with it. All was very well indeed, at least at first. The car immediately started charging, but on two occasions (one just before two and the other about 3.30) the sun went in and the Zappi cut the charge. Once export was re-established it started the charge again. Great. (In effect the car charging is the green bit.)

But then look at what happened at around 4.30. The solar suddenly dropped again, actually by more than it had done earlier in the day, but the Zappi compensated for that by drawing more from the home battery instead of cutting the charge. There was another spell of evening sunshine, but inevitably the solar generation faded. The Zappi went right on charging the car at around 2 kw, by drawing from the battery. I watched this until about 6.30 by which time the battery was under 80% and still heading south. I didn't see any sign it was going to stop even when it got dark.

So I thought I knew what would fix it, and went to make the tea. At first I thought it was going to go right on charging despite the extra load, but after a couple of minutes of the microwave and the kettle being on, the Zappi got the general idea and stopped charging. But if I'd just gone out and left it, where would I have been? Empty home battery, that's where.

Why on earth would the Zappi behave itself during the early and mid afternoon, but then under what seem to be the same circumstances occurring in late afternoon, decide to keep the charge going?

This is not a major issue, as I can see a simple solution. In the afternoon I had prioritised the Zappi over the Eddi as the car needed charging and I had all the hot water I wanted. So the Eddi never cut in. If the Eddi had had priority it would have cut in and performed the same function as the microwave. But it's a really weird anomaly and I have no clue why this is happening. (It happened once before too, about a month ago.)

More major is the issue with what happened when Octopus decided to give me that scheduled charge I didn't want. Here's the result.

1719699161013.png


I'm guessing the schedule was 01:00 to 01:30 and 02:30 to 03:00. When the charge started the Zappi drew only about 4 kw from the grid and the rest from the home battery. What on earth does it think it's playing at? Then it got worse. When the scheduled charge stopped, athough the grid import stopped, the Zappi went right on charging at around 2 kw, taken from the battery - much the same as its behaviour after the solar faded in the previous graph.

When the charge re-started at 02:30 the Zappi went back to taking 4 kw from the grid and 3 kw from the battery, and then again when Octopus cut the charge (presumably it thought I had the 10% I'd asked for) it reverted to continuing to charge from the battery right on until 04:15 when the battery hit 5% and said, no more. After that there was a small amount of grid import just to keep the house going, until the battery magically found another 10% of charge from God alone knows where (not the grid, and not solar at that time in the morning) and reported for duty on 15%. By that time the solar was beginning to take over the house load and the battery gradually started to recharge. It got brighter and by lunchtime it was charged and the Eddi had heated the water.

So this was not a disaster. The Zappi just gave the car the previous day's excess sunshine, and there was enough sun the next day (even though it was quite dull and rainy) to recharge the home battery by a reasonable time. But if it had been REALLY dull, I could have been short of non-peak-rate power.

This seems to me to be serious. I probably want to charge overnight next week some time, but it seems I can't do that without draining the home battery. At all. My installer is aware of this and he's going to get back to me, but I'd really like some input on what the freaking hell is going on.

I could imagine the first issue not being noticed by other clients, because even if they are charging from solar rather than exporting, starting the evening meal or just the Eddi coming on will stop the rot. I can't see anyone holding still for the latter problem though, and as far as I can see it's something that will inevitably affect me if I charge from the mains. (It also happened back in May when the Zappi itself had got accidentally programmed to start a charge at midnight, a charge I stopped manually about an hour later when I realised what was happening.)

I also think the two issues are connected, given the very similar behaviour of the Zappi after the Octopus charging windows had closed, and after the solar had faded.

It's still working like a dream in the middle of the day though. I'm baffled.
 
I have another question, mainly aimed at John
I dont know if I should be worried by you taking aim at me o_O o_O

but for anyone who knows about these things.

John warned about the Zappi draining the home battery under certain conditions, if it was wired up the way mine seems to be. I'm still trouble-shooting this with my installer. However the problem I am seeing doesn't seem to be what John warned about. The Zappi never ramps up its drain from the battery. But drain the battery it does.
The windup of charging current can and does occur under certain conditions. It does depend on how your inverter responds and your available energy sources i.e. battery and solar PV.

In fact the pass-the-parcel game between the Zappi, the Eddi, the solar, the grid and the house is really elegant and clever to watch, and as I say in the middle of the day I have not seen it put a foot wrong. Take yesterday for example.

View attachment 27683
I remember a mod on here saying that all they wanted was a solar PV / battery system that worked, they wouldn't be monitoring it like we all do etc etc ;)

I got in about 1.30 and saw that the home battery was at 100% and the hot water tank was up to temperature and export was going on. So I plugged the car in and let it get on with it. All was very well indeed, at least at first. The car immediately started charging, but on two occasions (one just before two and the other about 3.30) the sun went in and the Zappi cut the charge. Once export was re-established it started the charge again. Great. (In effect the car charging is the green bit.)

But then look at what happened at around 4.30. The solar suddenly dropped again, actually by more than it had done earlier in the day, but the Zappi compensated for that by drawing more from the home battery instead of cutting the charge.
No it did not, this is NOT a Zappi issue. Your inverter started to draw current from the battery to support the loads you have including Zappi.

There was another spell of evening sunshine, but inevitably the solar generation faded. The Zappi went right on charging the car at around 2 kw, by drawing from the battery.
Again, not the Zappi, your inverter carried on supplying the energy from the battery. Zappi doesn't know any different, it still sees it is drawing 2kW from the mains and no grid import is happening and therefore continues.

I watched this until about 6.30 by which time the battery was under 80% and still heading south. I didn't see any sign it was going to stop even when it got dark.
There is no reason for it to stop, until Zappi sees import from the grid, it wont change and thats exactly the problem. If you switched on some heavy loads briefly, more than your inverter can supply eg fan heater, oven, tumble drier etc, Zappi would see grid import happening and after a set delay reduce or stop the charge.

So I thought I knew what would fix it, and went to make the tea. At first I thought it was going to go right on charging despite the extra load, but after a couple of minutes of the microwave and the kettle being on, the Zappi got the general idea and stopped charging. But if I'd just gone out and left it, where would I have been? Empty home battery, that's where.
Exactly, you need the feed to the Zappi wiring correctly.

Why on earth would the Zappi behave itself during the early and mid afternoon, but then under what seem to be the same circumstances occurring in late afternoon, decide to keep the charge going?
You need to ask the correct question, "why would my inverter behave differently in the afternoon".............
It can be a number of factors that contribute to this effect, the inverter and it's settings are the major influencer. I have two inverters on my system of different makes and until I wired my Zappi correctly one or the other would feed it from the batteries dependent on parameters I had set.

This is not a major issue, as I can see a simple solution. In the afternoon I had prioritised the Zappi over the Eddi as the car needed charging and I had all the hot water I wanted. So the Eddi never cut in. If the Eddi had had priority it would have cut in and performed the same function as the microwave. But it's a really weird anomaly and I have no clue why this is happening. (It happened once before too, about a month ago.)
I find its best to set ZAPPI as priority because it needs above 1.4 kW of export to start car charging (thats the minimum charge level on most EV's). So the system monitors the grid export, when it starts to happen, even low levels such as 200 W, Zappi cant use it so second priority Eddi can. Eddi sets the output into the immersion to 200 W, as solar PV increases so does Eddi into the immersion. Once 1.4 kW of excess energy is reached for a short time, Eddi will stop feeding the immersion and Zappi will start the car charging at 1.4 kW. If solar PV drops, Eddi is reinstated and the car charging stopped.

More major is the issue with what happened when Octopus decided to give me that scheduled charge I didn't want. Here's the result.

View attachment 27684

I'm guessing the schedule was 01:00 to 01:30 and 02:30 to 03:00. When the charge started the Zappi drew only about 4 kw from the grid and the rest from the home battery. What on earth does it think it's playing at? Then it got worse. When the scheduled charge stopped, athough the grid import stopped, the Zappi went right on charging at around 2 kw, taken from the battery - much the same as its behaviour after the solar faded in the previous graph.

When the charge re-started at 02:30 the Zappi went back to taking 4 kw from the grid and 3 kw from the battery, and then again when Octopus cut the charge (presumably it thought I had the 10% I'd asked for) it reverted to continuing to charge from the battery right on until 04:15 when the battery hit 5% and said, no more. After that there was a small amount of grid import just to keep the house going, until the battery magically found another 10% of charge from God alone knows where (not the grid, and not solar at that time in the morning) and reported for duty on 15%. By that time the solar was beginning to take over the house load and the battery gradually started to recharge. It got brighter and by lunchtime it was charged and the Eddi had heated the water.
The key issue here is where Zappi is taking the load from, it needs to be BEFORE the solar PV/Battery sensing so that your inverter doesn't see the Zappi load. You also need as a matter of urgency your export tariff sorting and then the system setup becomes very straight forward. Export all what you generate, charge the batteries from the grid 23:30 to 05:30, charge the car overnight and/or during peak times if Octopus give a schedule (it gets you more hours on 7p).

So this was not a disaster. The Zappi just gave the car the previous day's excess sunshine, and there was enough sun the next day (even though it was quite dull and rainy) to recharge the home battery by a reasonable time. But if it had been REALLY dull, I could have been short of non-peak-rate power.
As I've probably mentioned, it's not Zappi doing it, it's your inverter :unsure:

This seems to me to be serious. I probably want to charge overnight next week some time, but it seems I can't do that without draining the home battery. At all. My installer is aware of this and he's going to get back to me, but I'd really like some input on what the freaking hell is going on.
Well it's all in there above and I did warn you BEFORE you had the install done what was needed. I know living down here in carrot crunching land you might think we know nowt but we do know the odd thing or two from experience and research.:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

I could imagine the first issue not being noticed by other clients, because even if they are charging from solar rather than exporting, starting the evening meal or just the Eddi coming on will stop the rot. I can't see anyone holding still for the latter problem though, and as far as I can see it's something that will inevitably affect me if I charge from the mains. (It also happened back in May when the Zappi itself had got accidentally programmed to start a charge at midnight, a charge I stopped manually about an hour later when I realised what was happening.)
A temporary fix would be to set your house batteries to charge overnight at the same time.

I also think the two issues are connected, given the very similar behaviour of the Zappi after the Octopus charging windows had closed, and after the solar had faded.
It's inverter behaviour doing exactly what it's supposed to do. It's a bit like have the heating on (that's the inverter) and then opening the windows because it's too warm (that's the load), the temperature inside drops so the boiler ramps up a bit more, the room temperature it too high again so the windows are opened more and so on. This is EXACTLY what's happening with your system.

It's still working like a dream in the middle of the day though. I'm baffled.
Understandably, it took me a while with some quite elaborate monitoring going on to troubleshoot the whole system and it is a whole system issue rather than Zappi. I have seen it 100's times on forums and social media and amongst friends and colleagues. Every time, wiring it correctly resolves the issue because the where the Zappi is supplied from is the root cause of it all.
 
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I showed my roof earlier, here it is again. The supplier recommends six panels on the garage and twelve on the main roof.

View attachment 25750

It's always seemed to me to be a bit of a sin not to put solar panels on that.

Simplistically, I look at the current recommendation for my monthly electricity DD, which is £146. Not actually a huge amount in the grand scheme of things. (I'm actually paying a bit less at the moment but the Scottish Power app is recommending an increase, possibly it's realised I'm consuming a bit more than I was.)

The entire quote (including solar panels, battery and Zappi) is £13,710. If I divide the quote by the monthly DD, then that makes 7 years 10 months worth of monthly payments. Obviously not accounting for inflation or lost interest and so on. My supplier is estimating 6-7 years of payback time. This suggests that over the year I'm not simply paying nothing for my electricity, I'm making a little bit.

I appreciate this is highly simplistic, but is this actually possible? And yet people who have the systems seem to be quite satisfied with the return they're getting, on the whole. And my electricity consumption is on the high side of average, so that should actually be advantageous.
I’m still in discussions regarding my EO charger which has not worked since Enel X/juucenet withdrew their software support in Feb. Currently this is with The Energy Ombudsman. I will keep you posted.
Like many on this forum I have an EV, Solar Panels, 5kWh battery and a heat pump.
What nobody has mentioned yet is the possibility of V2H or V2G. Not yet available for the MG range, but, when it is introduced you will effectively have a 70kWh parked on your driveway which could be used to power your whole house for days and could be charged at the cheaper tariff. Obviously you would need to leave enough in the car for any anticipated journeys. Might mean that you could get away with not needing a home powerwall and just use the car batteries.
 
I’m still in discussions regarding my EO charger which has not worked since Enel X/juucenet withdrew their software support in Feb.
Theyre not the only one withdrawing support for devices, good old Hive (British Gas) did the same for CCTV systems leaving owners with no working CCTV. Crazy situation.

Currently this is with The Energy Ombudsman. I will keep you posted.
Thanks and the very best of luck, I'm using the Ombudsman service to try and get some action from EDF who I use for my business energy (dreadful company).

Like many on this forum I have an EV, Solar Panels, 5kWh battery and a heat pump.
Good way to go.

What nobody has mentioned yet is the possibility of V2H or V2G. Not yet available for the MG range, but, when it is introduced you will effectively have a 70kWh parked on your driveway which could be used to power your whole house for days and could be charged at the cheaper tariff.
A nice idea but I think it will be a long time coming and relatively expensive.

Obviously you would need to leave enough in the car for any anticipated journeys. Might mean that you could get away with not needing a home powerwall and just use the car batteries.
Potentially yes but you'd be adding more cycles to the EV battery, the manufacturers may well reduce the warranty on systems used for this etc.
 
Theyre not the only one withdrawing support for devices, good old Hive (British Gas) did the same for CCTV systems leaving owners with no working CCTV. Crazy situation.


Thanks and the very best of luck, I'm using the Ombudsman service to try and get some action from EDF who I use for my business energy (dreadful company).


Good way to go.


A nice idea but I think it will be a long time coming and relatively expensive.


Potentially yes but you'd be adding more cycles to the EV battery, the manufacturers may well reduce the warranty on systems used for this etc.
Interesting that your dispute is with EDF. So is mine. I purchased the EO charger from EDF who say that I should pursue EO who are blaming juucenet. Been offered new unit at 23% discount. My contention is that a charger should not be “obsolete” (the term used by them) with no repairable parts after only four years . If this is the industry norm, that would effectively be a hidden cost of running an EV of upwards of £250.00 per year. Negating most of the fuel savings for low mileage users.
 
Interesting that your dispute is with EDF. So is mine. I purchased the EO charger from EDF who say that I should pursue EO who are blaming juucenet. Been offered new unit at 23% discount. My contention is that a charger should not be “obsolete” (the term used by them) with no repairable parts after only four years . If this is the industry norm, that would effectively be a hidden cost of running an EV of upwards of £250.00 per year. Negating most of the fuel savings for low mileage users.
I totally agree with you. I would pursue them for a refund, your contract is with them, under EU law goods should be fit for purpose etc, TV's and other electrical goods, 6 years.
Small claims court, full refund, get a Zappi and move to Octopus (use my code below and get £50 credit :))
 
I totally agree with you. I would pursue them for a refund, your contract is with them, under EU law goods should be fit for purpose etc, TV's and other electrical goods, 6 years.
Small claims court, full refund, get a Zappi and move to Octopus (use my code below and get £50 credit :))

I totally agree with you. I would pursue them for a refund, your contract is with them, under EU law goods should be fit for purpose etc, TV's and other electrical goods, 6 years.
Small claims court, full refund, get a Zappi and move to Octopus (use my code below and get £50 credit :))
Thinking of going for a Pod Point 3s. Which distributes solar charging and is also V2G ready.
 
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