EV opposition in the media is ramping up

[M44LCY]

From The Telegraph:

https://archive.is/20240717124433/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/07/17/insanity-labour-electric-car-plan-now-glaringly-obvious/

Nothing to do with the new Labour government. The basic problem is that industrialised nations decided to buy from cheaper countries rather than make our own. It started with inconsequential consumer goods and gradually spread to high ticket items. Companies could buy dirt cheap, sell at prices well below the norm but still multiply their margins. Thus we all voluntarily "offshored" our home production. The car industry is only the latest example of this.

As a retired lecturer in Computer Science, we witnessed a massive surge in students from China. We discussed how so many Chinese families could afford to send their children to the UK. We considered the likelihood that we were educating them to a standard that they could go home and start educating others … and that we were helping to build skill sets that could mean we were equipping them to undermine our own tech sector. But all is fair in love, war and global trade.

Now, China et al are the workshops of the world, and it is largely down to the usual short termist attitudes of the West. We really do only have ourselves to blame. As Sandy Munro explained recently - VW, Mercedes, JLR, etc all offshored production to China because it was cheaper. What happened? We showed them how to do it, they improved the processes. And, as he said, they're not just building good cars, they’re the BEST.

Are Chinese cars cheap? No - they're like the early offshoring products. Cheaper than domestically produced, but probably high margin to the Chinese manufacturers. Our own auto industry is long gone. The European makes have to decide whether to go 'all in' on EV production or defer and find it's too late. It can be done - look at the way Renault uses Dacia to peroduce lower cost cars while retaining production in Europe. Or VW's acquisition of Skoda and its transformation into high quality, low production cost, cars.

In the meantime, who can blame consumers like ourselves for opting for good quality, technically capable, cars that we can afford? Nobody else was producing them until recently.

 

[Gadget Geek]

As a retired lecturer in Computer Science, we witnessed a massive surge in students from China. We discussed how so many Chinese families could afford to send their children to the UK. We considered the likelihood that we were educating them to a standard that they could go home and start educating others … and that we were helping to build skill sets that could mean we were equipping them to undermine our own tech sector. But all is fair in love, war and global trade.

On the subject of teaching, did you see the Channel 4 documentary on the Nottingham University campus in China?

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/secrets-power-china-in-the-uk-dispatches#:~:text=Dispatches%20investigates%20Chinese%20state%20interference,with%20a%20UK%2Dbased%20activist.

Very worrying.

 

[Gadget Geek]

the language used such as "forcing us into EVs" displays this. Talking about the government's plan as an insanity is not a pro-EV position.

Agreed, but I tend to ignore the sensationalism and look at the content, which in this case is quite accurate. No regurgitated myths or FUD.

 

[tsedge]

Agreed, but I tend to ignore the sensationalism and look at the content, which in this case is quite accurate. No regurgitated myths or FUD.

To be fair, I never said anything about the content, I just posted the story and I don't disagree with you.

I only responded because you appeared to claim it was irrelevant to post it here. I felt it was relevant given the track record of the Telegraph and the headline and some of the phrasing.

But if your argument is that this should have been posted elsewhere as its own topic, that's a fair point.

 

[Gadget Geek]

To be fair, I never said anything about the content, I just posted the story and I don't disagree with you.

I only responded because you appeared to claim it was irrelevant to post it here. I felt it was relevant given the track record of the Telegraph and the headline and some of the phrasing.

But if your argument is that this should have been posted elsewhere as its own topic, that's a fair point.

No, not at all. It's as good a place to post it as anywhere. Maybe the thread about tariffs on Chinese imports might have been more relevant; but I was highlighting how the reporting of some good information is tarnished by adding anti EV comments.

 

[Gomev]

... It can be done - look at the way Renault uses Dacia to peroduce lower cost cars while retaining production in Europe. Or VW's acquisition of Skoda and its transformation into high quality, low production cost, cars.

...

I would hardly call Skodas low cost anymore, starting at £20,000 for the cheapest most basic Fabia up to as much as you can pay.
But there again I wouldn't call any car cheap, apart from maybe Dacia which is relative.

 

[M44LCY]

I would hardly call Skodas low cost anymore, starting at £20,000 for the cheapest most basic Fabia up to as much as you can pay.
But there again I wouldn't call any car cheap, apart from maybe Dacia which is relative.

That was my point. I was trying to say that transformation can be done. The Skoda example was intended to reflect how VAG totally transformed a low quality, low price brand into one offering high quality, low production cost, cars.

As the adverts of the time said "They changed everything." and brought it up to VAG standards. From being one of the cheapest cars on the market, it quickly became a VW surrogate at prices not much, if anything, below the VAG badged equivalent.

Similarly, and in much the same way - Renault acquired Dacia, rejigged it to produce cars based on Renault running gear and selling, from memory, at £8000 or so. Today's Dacia are every bit as good as the equivalent Renault models (a lot of the parts in Dacia are stamped "Renault” including, for example, the most recent and highly efficient three cylinder Renault engine.) At the same time, and as VAG did with Skoda, their prices are gradually aligning with the market … but they still benefit from lower production costs.

So yes, transformation can be done.

 

[tsedge]

I would hardly call Skodas low cost anymore, starting at £20,000 for the cheapest most basic Fabia up to as much as you can pay.
But there again I wouldn't call any car cheap, apart from maybe Dacia which is relative.

Inflation accounts for a lot of this, plus the cost of new tech / upgraded specs.

I looked back and a very basic 950cc Ford Fiesta cost £3,560 in 1983, just over 40 years ago. With inflation that would be £11,748 today. However, a 1.1 Ghia was £5,100 (£16,850 today) and included such wonders as an LCD clock and glovebox light.

But even a Dacia today is far bigger, better and more advanced machine.

Since 2019, UK inflation has been 24.3%, so a car costing £16.090 in 2019 should be £20,000 today.

Equally since 2019, £25k is the new £20k and £31k is the new £25k. These prices seem massive to me but it is all about adjusting to the change.

 

[Rolfe]

I bought a Fiesta 1.1L (not the Gigha) in 1985, and it was just over £5,000. MW/LW radio and, er, that was about it. I thought I was the cat's pyjamas.

 

[tsedge]

More apocalyptic reporting from the Telegraph, ably debunked by the host:

 

[M44LCY]

Inflation accounts for a lot of this, plus the cost of new tech / upgraded specs.

I looked back and a very basic 950cc Ford Fiesta cost £3,560 in 1983, just over 40 years ago. With inflation that would be £11,748 today. However, a 1.1 Ghia was £5,100 (£16,850 today) and included such wonders as an LCD clock and glovebox light.

But even a Dacia today is far bigger, better and more advanced machine.

Since 2019, UK inflation has been 24.3%, so a car costing £16.090 in 2019 should be £20,000 today.

Equally since 2019, £25k is the new £20k and £31k is the new £25k. These prices seem massive to me but it is all about adjusting to the change.

I've just been looking at the Vauxhall Car Price Guide for 1 December 1994 - 30 years ago. The cheapest was a Corsa "Breeze" 1.2L 3-Door at £7440. 5-Door LS Astras £11000-£12000. Cavalier LS about £1000 more, but you could pay £19000 for a CDX with leather. I'd say that, in real terms (after accounting for inflation), cars are a lot cheaper these days.

 

[Archev]

Guys don’t tell anyone but these clever folk have devised a new fuel on the quiet it seems.

 

[Coulomb]

It's presumably biodiesel. I suppose you could argue that it's renewable.

 

[Archev]

It's presumably biodiesel. I suppose you could argue that it's renewable.

Aye it’s probably just the ticket for this diesel trike at Sturgis this week. A Caterpillar engine from a Kenworth truck.

 

[siteguru]

Guys don’t tell anyone but these clever folk have devised a new fuel on the quiet it seems.

View attachment 28688

Interesting RON ratings ... even the highest unleaded is only 91, whereas here in the UK standard unleaded is 95 RON. ?‍

 

[maskull]

Interesting RON ratings ... even the highest unleaded is only 91, whereas here in the UK standard unleaded is 95 RON. ?‍

I believe it's 91 Octane ,which the equivalent of 95 RON in the UK

 

[decrep]

I think we have 91, 95 and 98

 

[mg4mc]

According to Wikipedia, the USA uses AKI (otherwise known as PON), rather than RON. With AKI being 4 to 6 lower than RON.

AKI is an average of RON and MON.

 

[Caramaddy]

I've just been looking at the Vauxhall Car Price Guide for 1 December 1994 - 30 years ago. The cheapest was a Corsa "Breeze" 1.2L 3-Door at £7440. 5-Door LS Astras £11000-£12000. Cavalier LS about £1000 more, but you could pay £19000 for a CDX with leather. I'd say that, in real terms (after accounting for inflation), cars are a lot cheaper these days.

That is a very good comparison. My neighbour bought a 2.0 litre petrol Passat Estate with all the trimmings in 2007. He paid around £25,000. I thought the price was astronomical at the time - and it was!

 

[Archev]

According to Wikipedia, the USA uses AKI (otherwise known as PON), rather than RON. With AKI being 4 to 6 lower than RON.

AKI is an average of RON and MON.

All I know is that it’s costly and at under 14 mpg I’m getting poorer rapidly ?