Facelift ZS EV LR battery type.

[DrTom]

Does anyone know the battery technology in the new ZS LR.

There is a discussion going on on the Facebook group as to whether it is LI-ion NMC or LFP.

Any ideas??

 

[Kithmo]

As a layman, what's the difference and why would it matter to me ?

 

[prmedloc]

Li-ion NMC is "normal". You have to slightly look after the batteries ideally by not leaving at 100% charge for too long etc. They in degrade in capacity at maybe 7% a year for the first few years in particular.

LFP batteries are more robust, and will degrade very slowly, and can be charged to 100%. Only Tesla have used them in a car so far.

The disadvantage with them is that they are more sensitive to being charged when cold, and could potentially be damaged if the car didn't manage that. Also it's much more difficult for the cars electronics to determine how full or empty the battery is. So you need very well designed and refined firmware.

There were various reviews last winter of the early Tesla Model 3's with LFP batteries having problems until a software update was released. And actually that fix was done just as summer arrived, so we've not had a full winter set of reviews from people with LFP models 3's yet, so it could be interesting to see if any additional issues are highlighted as it gets colder.

If MG use a LFP battery it would be more robust, and last longer. But there could well be software issues that need to be resolved with charging when cold, and reliability of the charge level monitoring.

 

[DrTom]

Thanks for the info Premedloc.

Couple of questions here.

1) 7% per year degradation ?? After 5 years, that would be 35% degradation. My Gen1 was over a year old when I sold it and still had 100% SOH - charged to 100% once a month as suggested by MG.

2) Still doesn't answer the question as to which technology is in the new ZS LR.

Think I saw somewhere on here that the LR is MNC and the new SR may be LFP.

Someone must know ???

 

[stapsell]

Thanks for asking, I am wondering as well.
I have always presumed LFP since its the cheapest battery chemistry, made by CATL, in China and this is pretty much the cheapest electric car. The Chinese government (majority owner of SAIC) has been backing LFP, since China has natural resources of the raw materials.

But I think Miles mentioned in a podcast, the ZS EV for the UK is not made in the same factory as the left hand drive models...

So do the UK cars get made in the Thailand factory at Chonburi?
Do they have the CATL battery shown in the video here

MG Electric Car Batteries: How Are They Built? (Video)

MG, by the way of introducing the MG ZS EV model in the UK, released a very detailed and informative video about battery pack production.

insideevs.com

Or do they use different battery chemistry from the cars sold here compared with the rest of Europe?

After 14 months and 16000 miles my ZS EV battery state of health was 97%, so I'm very happy so far. Especially as the first 1-2 years is when the quickest deterioration is said to happen (based on the Tesla battery data).

Knowing the chemistry may give clues as to best prolong the battery health...

 

[Lucky5]

Existing MG5 SR is NMC. Printed on battery casing

 

[Alan5]

My car is 26 months old 14500 miles showing 97.5% SOH so I am happy with that , I still intend to keep it for a few more year yet so will be interesting to see how much further it drops over that period of time ?.The new ZS EV looks ok and obviously the extra milage is good to have but I think it needs a Bjorn Nyland test , it's a bit worrying that in their advert for the car their quoting a rapid charge to 80% using a 50 KW charger at 1hr 3 minutes , makes me think the charging curve is not very good ? any new car with a 72 kWh battery in my opinion should have a charging peak well above 100 KW and a decent charging curve to match , in that respect my next EV will probably not be an MG , I think the first generation MG ZS EV with 44 kWh battery charging at 50 KW and slightly above on higher powered charger's is fine and I am happy with that , let's see in a couple of year's if Elon is true to his word and releases his 25000 dollar Tesla as I am sure it will have excellent efficiency and super fast charging to match.

 

[Lovemyev]

My car is 26 months old 14500 miles showing 97.5% SOH so I am happy with that , I still intend to keep it for a few more year yet so will be interesting to see how much further it drops over that period of time ?.The new ZS EV looks ok and obviously the extra milage is good to have but I think it needs a Bjorn Nyland test , it's a bit worrying that in their advert for the car their quoting a rapid charge to 80% using a 50 KW charger at 1hr 3 minutes , makes me think the charging curve is not very good ? any new car with a 72 kWh battery in my opinion should have a charging peak well above 100 KW and a decent charging curve to match , in that respect my next EV will probably not be an MG , I think the first generation MG ZS EV with 44 kWh battery charging at 50 KW and slightly above on higher powered charger's is fine and I am happy with that , let's see in a couple of year's if Elon is true to his word and releases his 25000 dollar Tesla as I am sure it will have excellent efficiency and super fast charging to match.

All very good points that you make @Alan5 .
Regarding rapid charging speeds for the new ZS EV face lift model, the speed IS a little less than expected for a pack size this large, in comparison to other manufactures figures.
But I guess this is only of major importance if you are a high user case and intend to use rapid chargers on a regular basis ?.
Having a larger battery / increased range, could mean you are less likely to require the use of the rapid charger network I guess ?.
It largely depends on your usage case really.
Having ultra fast chargers ( for cars that can accept them ) should mean more through put of EV's through the system of course.
But personally I have to admit, that I am not a big fan of rapid chargers anyway.

 

[Gomev]

...... it's a bit worrying that in their advert for the car their quoting a rapid charge to 80% using a 50 KW charger at 1hr 3 minutes , makes me think the charging curve is not very good ? ...

Simple arithmetic. If the charger is only 50kW then it can and will only deliver (a max of) 50kWh in an hour and that is approx 66% of the battery total. Nothing to do with the car, simply the speed of the charger.

Now if you had said the cars maximum charging speed is only 80kWh, then that would be a little disappointing for a car with that battery size.

 

[stapsell]

OK, my exclusive MG ZS EV is NCM: Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxides.
Battery Mass is 283kg.
as stated by Lucky5, there is a label on the pack, look under the passenger seat...see photo below
Data from label:

100RES-020085
Produce Name: REESS
Chemical Type: NCM
Rated Energy: 44.5KWh
Rated Capacity: 110Ah
Nominal Voltage 394.2V
Product Model: EC110A43S (REESS)
MG110A/BMS-02(BMS)
Version: Version 2
Standard of execution: ECE 100-02
Manufacturer: United Auto Battery System Co., Ltd
Manufacturer address: No.999, Chengbei Road, Liyang, Jiangsu

What does this mean?
Well United Auto Battery System is the CATL / SAIC factory.
NCM is Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxides. The ratio of these is used in different amounts, with 523 (5 Nickel, 2 Cobalt and 3 Manganese) being the common type used in existing CATL cells.
There is a push towards 811 packs from all manufacturers, which are both cheaper an denser, but there has been some problems with roll out of this chemistry.

Based upon my reading, I speculate the likely chemistry is NCM 523 for existing models, with NCM 811 packs in the just announced long range cars. Similar conclusions from a pundit at PushEVs

MG unveils its new electric cars

Today MG unveiled its new all-electric model range, comprised by the electric station wagon MG5, its flagship SUV Marvel R Electric and a renewed MG ZS EV. Let’s see the press release. All-new MG Marvel R Electric Unveiled last March, the MG Marvel R Electric is the brand’s flagship SUV, fitted...

pushevs.com

Take home as consumer, best to cycle battery between 30-80% in daily use, so if I upgraded to new model and could restrict charge to 80% for daily use, but have the extra 20% capacity for bigger trips, would likely age the battery a little better.

My recent battery State of Health (SOH) at 14month service, 16000 miles was 97%, which is very good for NCM chemistry I think.

Battery packs will become much cheaper, but current cars have been subsidised by chinese government (building the car and battery factory), and by UK grant (combined with no car tax).
Therefore actual falls in car costs will be modest.

Right, that is enough battery geeking out for now?!

 

[Alan5]

Simple arithmetic. If the charger is only 50kW then it can and will only deliver (a max of) 50kWh in an hour and that is approx 66% of the battery total. Nothing to do with the car, simply the speed of the charger.

Now if you had said the cars maximum charging speed is only 80kWh, then that would be a little disappointing for a car with that battery size.

That was my disappointment the maximum charging speed , I have seen two articles that have stated a maximum charging speed of 76 kw which to my mind makes me think it's not going to charge any faster than the 1st generation ZS EV and if that is the case I know Bjorn Nyland will do his classic hand on head pose ? I only quoted the 80% charging speed using a 50 KW Charger as that's what MG have advertised , to my mind if it could reach 80% faster why not advertise that , surely it would be an extra selling point for the car. At the end of the day we don't actually know about efficiency and charging until the car has been fully tested , it was just an observation ?

 

[DrTom]

Hi Stapsell.

Great post !!

When you say current models would have 523 and new long range have 811 what do you think the new ZS EV will have ??

Do you think that will be classed as existing or new long range?

Cheers

TT

 

[stapsell]

So I was surprised when looking into this, that the information is actually not publically available. Here is my guess work from looking online last night and this morning:

I think the current models are NCM 523 (or NCM 622) while new long range (LR) models are most likely NCM 811, while new standard range might be LFP (I have read this is true of the updated MG5, can anyone confirm? Perhaps the facelift european models?).

The NCM 811 chemistry promises a lot, offering around 10% more capacity in the same volume / weight with around 10% reduced cost per KWh. Whats the catch? It is newer and less proven techology, there were reports in 2020 of problems with 811 batterys made by CATL "spontaneous combustion", but those issues were 18 months ago, hopefully since addressed?

Metals & Mining

The global leader in commercial intelligence for the energy, metals and mining industries, providing objective analysis and advice on assets, companies and markets.

roskill.com

Hence refreshing the MG5 and MG ZS is required for MG to take advantage of the latest (cheaper) chemistry, and perhaps for CATL to prove it can deliver a reliable battery and at scale (to negotiate with other car makers)

For me this is actually a slight dilemma. I like the idea of LFP, since according to my reading it could comfortably outlast the car.

But I really like the idea of 270 miles range (after trying driving my ZS EV to York and back from Devon)...

If the chemistry as above is right, it could explain, similar weight new car vs current car, similar weight LR vs updated standard range model, upgraded specs without huge jump in price. But is it right??? I dont know!

 

[DrTom]

Just read this on CNTech site.

Compared with other Li-ion ternary batteries, the NCM811 battery has increased the proportion of nickel used, allowing its battery to have a single energy density of 300Wh/Kg.

This gives it a 50% increase in battery capacity density over mainstream models such as the 523 and 622, meaning that the vehicle can carry more power in the same amount of space.

However, the increased nickel content also degrades the stability of the cathode material of the ternary battery, mainly in terms of capacity loss from cyclic charging and discharging and accelerated capacity degradation in high-temperature environments. This not only leads to a decrease in the service life of the Model 811 battery, but also a consequent increase in the risk of spontaneous combustion due to thermal runaway.

I think we could all do with knowing the actual chemistry of the facelift model battery. If it is NCM 811 it raises concerns about safety and longevity of the battery pack.

Any of the dealers/EV techs out there actually know the makeup of the new ZS EV LR pack ???

 

[DrTom]

Confirmed from MG UK that the battery in the new ZS is NMC.

They could not confirm the cell type as quote "With regards to the battery cell type in the new ZS EV, unfortunately this level of information has not been released to individual markets."

Looking at the extra range and not that much extra weight I would guess that it is the NMC811 technology that is being used to get the extra range.

This is probably why the new model has a Battery Health Mode of 40% to 80% and a Long Journey Mode of 80% to 100%.

I am lead to believe that NMC811 cells don't like being charged to 100% very often as they have a faster degradation rate than the older models NMC523 cells.

I am also lead to believe that high nickel cathode NMC811 cells are more prone to thermal runaway.

Having said all of this, Tesla use the high nickel cathode NMA batteries in their cars that are supposed to have the same issue.

Let's hope that MG have got eh thermal dynamics right.

Any battery techs out there, please feel free to contradict me or confirm the cell type.

 

[drmcw]

Does the MG show battery temperature?

 

[thingaby]

Thank you to the contributors to this thread. This is the best researched thread I have found on the site and should be read by all LR buyers. I think the conclusion that the new models will have NMC811 chemistry is well argued. Maybe the problematic aspects of that chemistry is why MG are coy about making the information public? It's not enough for me to cancel my Trophy order but I will be sticking to the MG battery health guidelines (up to 80%) unless I really need the 100% or if there are battery balancing requirements.

 

[DrTom]

No, I won't be cancelling my order either but is all good information to know.

With the longer range I think most users could easily stay within the 40%-80% for normal use and only charge to 100% when required for a long journey or balancing.

drmcw - I'm not sure exactly what information the new model give you but I don't think that the Gen1 gave battery temp.

It is available for the Gen1 via an OBD2 app written by one of the members of this forum but I'm not sure if this will work with the Gen2 model.

Not sure if it is available with any of the other OBD2 apps - maybe someone can tell us.

whichever app you use you need an OBD2 dongle to get that information.

 

[drmcw]

My leaf gives an indication of the battery temperature but then doesn't have any thermal management. I can't see temperatures being too much of a problem in this country and they're presumably selling these to India/Thailand etc but an idea of temperature would be useful when charging to try and avoid coldgating and rapidgating.

 

[Lovemyev]

My leaf gives an indication of the battery temperature but then doesn't have any thermal management. I can't see temperatures being too much of a problem in this country and they're presumably selling these to India/Thailand etc but an idea of temperature would be useful when charging to try and avoid coldgating and rapidgating.

I can understand the need to see the HV battery temp on the Leaf because it is not liquid cooled, but the ZS EV does have it.
So maybe they consider they have any cooling issues under control already and therefore never considered offering the facility ???‍.