Intelligent Octopus Go works like a dream.

[Tig170]

Aaaaghhhh! It's nearly one in the morning, I need to try and get my head round that in the morning. I'm really very new to all this, and I don't know the full range of possibilities offered by Octopus.

I'm hoping to hear about the G99 tomorrow or the next day at the worst. Fingers crossed!

All G99 does is provide you an MPAN from your local DNO, I have one but its not worth doing anything with. Last year was 217kWh export, i.e. £20-£30 quid, they key thing last year was the difference between peak (45p) & offpeak rates (4.5p), so paid a few hundered quid rather than a few thousand ~ 6000 Watts? (the car was not included in these figures - due to the CT clamp) - but the total electric bill was less than £500 (incl. standing charge)

 

[Martinonline]

Most of that is completely incomprehensible to me! "Changed the CT clamp"? What strange alchemy do you speak of?

A CT clamp is used to sense the current flowing through a live cable and thus predict energy usage. With my Ohme system it is used to limit the Ohme current if the total current being drawn is nearing the main's 80 amp fuse.

 

[Rolfe]

All G99 does is provide you an MPAN from your local DNO, I have one but its not worth doing anything with. Last year was 217kWh export, i.e. £20-£30 quid, they key thing last year was the difference between peak (45p) & offpeak rates (4.5p), so paid a few hundered quid rather than a few thousand ~ 6000 Watts? (the car was not included in these figures - due to the CT clamp) - but the total electric bill was less than £500 (incl. standing charge)

View attachment 27905

I have had my system for a little under two months and have already exported 591 kwh to the grid, with no payment. This is despite trying my best to use as much of the solar generation as possible including filling up the car.

I gather that without the G99 I don't get paid for my grid export. (I've already lost nearly £90.) Or rather, I think the installer has to limit my inverter to 3.5 kwh which will cap what I can generate/export and also make it more likely that I'll be drawing from the grid at peak prices.

I'm told they're obliged to give me a decision by tomorrow.

 

[andyvee]

Just leave it set at 100%, it will work fine.

I'm not forcing anything, I'm just asking the system to supply me with 'X' amount of energy by a certain time

Octopus supply energy outside of the off peak hours IF they have a surplus of energy available, thats why sometimes they dont offer extra sessions.

All of the above is incorrect advice, and tariff gaming.

Zappi state in their collateral to NOT leave set at ADD 100% charge and to specify what you actually require.

It is 'forcing' Octopus to provide additional off-peak slots if you specify you need the equivalent of 10hrs charging every time you plug in, when in reality you only need a fraction of that.

Octopus DO NOT restrict how much you get on IOG - they will always map a charge session fot he amount you request, unless it is physically impossible because you have not allowed enough time.

Leaving the end time set to 05:30 to force Octopus to provide charge prior to 23:30 is also gaming, the whole point of the tariff is that you specify how much charge you need and what time you need the car ready for - so if that is 07:00 set 07:00 as the end time. Octopus will then work out when it is best to charge during that window to help balance the grid, amount of renewables generation, cost etc.

The Octopus Ts&Cs state you set two things - how much charge you require and the time you need the car to be charged for. If you are doing something other than this, then you are in breach of the Ts&Cs that you agreed to when you joined the tariff. Octopus are well aware of the 'gaming' by Zappi users leaving it set to ADD 100% charge regardless of their actual requirements. Zappi have also stated that it was a concern and would result in changes to the tariff.

 

[johnb80]

All of the above is incorrect advice, and tariff gaming.

Your opinion, not the opinion of Octopus.

Zappi state in their collateral to NOT leave set at ADD 100% charge and to specify what you actually require.

There isnt anywhere to enter into Zappi the amount of charge required, if anything was to be applied to Zappi it would be from MyEnergi, Zappi is the model of MyEnergi EVSE.

It is 'forcing' Octopus to provide additional off-peak slots if you specify you need the equivalent of 10hrs charging every time you plug in, when in reality you only need a fraction of that.

It's doing nothing of the sort, it's potentially requesting some additional slots which I do every Sunday morning, Octopus are happy to supply IF they have a surplus of energy. Theres no demand, no guarantee etc, it benefits Octopus if they can use the excess they may have. Windy days, bright sun and warmer weather increase the likelyhood of the extra sessions.

Octopus DO NOT restrict how much you get on IOG - they will always map a charge session fot he amount you request, unless it is physically impossible because you have not allowed enough time.

No they dont, a charge session can be finished before the desired amount of energy has been dispensed.

Leaving the end time set to 05:30 to force Octopus to provide charge prior to 23:30 is also gaming, the whole point of the tariff is that you specify how much charge you need and what time you need the car ready for - so if that is 07:00 set 07:00 as the end time. Octopus will then work out when it is best to charge during that window to help balance the grid, amount of renewables generation, cost etc.

I do know and understand all of the theories and ideals, I have also spent considerable time working with Octopus before the tariff was launched doing trials with my i3. Again, you say I'm forcing Octopus to supply, that isnt the case and never was, you can only request an amount of energy by a set time, it's up to Octopus to supply or not dependent on their utilisation.

The Octopus Ts&Cs state you set two things - how much charge you require and the time you need the car to be charged for. If you are doing something other than this, then you are in breach of the Ts&Cs that you agreed to when you joined the tariff.

Octopus T&C's

2.4.1 Intelligent Octopus Go
2.4.1.1 Intelligent Octopus Go is a Variable Rate Tariff, with your daily standing charge, a quoted day rate per kWh and a quoted night rate (for six hours, from 23:30 to 05:30 - the “off-peak hours”).

2.4.1.2 Intelligent Octopus Go is compatible with our following export tariffs: “Octopus Outgoing Smart Export Guarantee”, “Outgoing Fixed” and “Outgoing Agile”.

2.4.1.3 The Intelligent Octopus Go tariff is for customers with a battery electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid vehicle that charges primarily at the home that we supply. Any electricity used by the vehicle according to the Intelligent Octopus Go schedule plus any other electricity used in your home during off-peak hours will be charged at the night rate.

2.4.1.4 If we schedule your electric vehicle to charge outside of the off-peak hours, we will apply the night rate for your EV charging and any underlying household usage will be charged in the relevant half hour billing periods.

2.4.1.5 To be eligible for this tariff, you agree to download the Octopus Energy app and register your Low Carbon Technology on the app. This is an ongoing requirement throughout your time on this tariff.

2.4.1.6 If at any time you do not have an active authorisation for integration with a supported vehicle or charge point and you have not had such active authorisation for a period of more than 30 days, or there is a material change to your charging set up that is not compatible with IO Go (for example you no longer have the car or charger you used to sign up to Intelligent Octopus Go), you will no longer be eligible for this tariff and we will switch you to one of our fairly priced standard tariffs and you will be billed according to your usage under that tariff.

2.4.1.7 You must record your operating preferences in the Octopus Energy app, for example what time you need your electric vehicle ready in the morning and how much energy you would like to add to your vehicle. We'll take your operating preferences into account first and optimise your energy use around that. If it's not possible to charge your car by the time you specify (for example, because the connector capacity is not sufficient for a full charge or because your preferences are updated on too short notice for a full charge) we'll notify you and try to charge as much as possible in the time available.

2.4.1.8 Intelligent Octopus Go is subject to a fair use policy with a maximum of six hours of managed charging per 24 hours. Should your charging schedule request more than six hours per 24 hours, we reserve the right to charge any incremental usage above six hours at the day rate.

2.4.1.9 By signing up to the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff, you agree to:

a) Give us permission to integrate and connect with your Low Carbon Technology using your home wifi, in-built sim card, or other method as agreed between us.
b) Give us permission to influence the times of operation of your Low Carbon Technology. We will always strive to operate these assets in line with the preferences you have specified in our app, but this service cannot be guaranteed.
c) Us collecting data about your Low Carbon Technology, including but not limited to model, power consumption, operating preferences, any actions you take to operate these assets and how these assets perform. We will use this information to optimise your asset operations, send operating instructions to your Low Carbon Technology, and generate bills.
d) Give us exclusive rights to enter contracts for the provision of Demand Response Services with your Low Carbon Technology while you remain on this tariff. By agreeing to these T&Cs terms you authorise Octopus to enter Demand Response Services contracts with your Low Carbon Technology and share relevant data with the relevant Market Operator, including but not limited to your half-hourly consumption data, address and Meter Point Administration Number (MPAN) where necessary.
e) Give us the exclusive right to control your Low Carbon Technology to deliver on Demand Response Services when required by such service contracts.
f) Not enter your Premises into any third party schemes that enter you into a Demand Response Service while you remain on this tariff. If we become aware that you have joined a third party scheme, we have the right to remove you from Intelligent Octopus Go.
2.4.1.10 We do not guarantee that this tariff will be compatible with your Low Carbon Technology or that your technology will operate in accordance with your preferences. We accept no liability for wear of your Low Carbon Technology, scheduling failure or other electric faults. Our liability to you is as set out in our General Terms and Conditions.

FWIW I've integrated IOG into my Home Assistant system and it initiates home battery charging at the same time as Zappi wakes up during peak times. The system I use I developed with co-operation from Octopus and results in my average electricity cost being between 7.1p and 7.8p KWh. This is done by fully utilising off peak pricing during peak times during winter. Again, Octopus are fully aware of what I'm doing and how I'm operating. There is no reference to 'Gaming The System' in the T&C's that you refer to, they do say 6 hours of off peak in any 24 but they dont enforce it art the moment, sure theyre totally free to do so under their T&C's whenever they wish.

Octopus are well aware of the 'gaming' by Zappi users leaving it set to ADD 100% charge regardless of their actual requirements. Zappi have also stated that it was a concern and would result in changes to the tariff.

Again, you cant set Zappi to add 100% and Zappi wont have made any such comment.

 

[tsedge]

Most people don't read Ts&Cs, myself included.

The app doesn't ask me to set the charge level each night, so I leave mine on +80% (which is always sufficient).

I just plug in the car and it works.

If Octopus didn't want this, they'd:

• Ask you every time what you need
• Monitor the amount dispensed and compare to what you asked for
• Contact people who ask for too much consistently.

As of today they have done none of these things. I'm not interested in speculation about what they may do, just the facts of the service today.

It has been like this for a long time now so presumably it works well for Octopus or they would have changed it.

 

[johnb80]

Most people don't read Ts&Cs, myself included.

The app doesn't ask me to set the charge level each night, so I leave mine on +80% (which is always sufficient).

I just plug in the car and it works.

If Octopus didn't want this, they'd:

• Ask you every time what you need
• Monitor the amount dispensed and compare to what you asked for
• Contact people who ask for too much consistently.

As of today they have done none of these things. I'm not interested in speculation about what they may do, just the facts of the service today.

It has been like this for a long time now so presumably it works well for Octopus or they would have changed it.

100% agree, I have had conversations with the techie's at Octopus and they confirmed all of what I have stated and what you've experienced.

J

 

[andyvee]

Your opinion, not the opinion of Octopus.

Incorrect. You obviously have no idea of the engagement I have had with Octopus and Ohme on IOG and discussions with Project Managers and Product Owners at both companies regarding this, including Octopus staff such as Phil Steele. You are incorrect.

There isnt anywhere to enter into Zappi the amount of charge required

Thats becuase you set it in the Octopus app .....

It's doing nothing of the sort, it's potentially requesting some additional slots which I do every Sunday morning, Octopus are happy to supply IF they have a surplus of energy

The tariff doesn't work like that in the slightest - you are displaying a lack of understanding. Octopus do not deny you the requested charge UNLESS you have not allowed enough time and (7kW multiplied by the lenth of the session). If you ask for 64kWh it will always map 64kWh of charging unless the session length you have specified is less than 9 1/4 hours. That will result in charging being allocated as additional off peak - its tariff gaming if you only need 20kWh of charge.

No they dont, a charge session can be finished before the desired amount of energy has been dispensed.

Only if there is a fault or you are gaming and the car is full hours before Octopus expect it to be. Octopus do NOT restrict the amount of charge based on this mythical concept of if there is cheap or excess electricity floating round the grid.

I have also spent considerable time working with Octopus before the tariff was launched doing trials with my i3

The i3 was a vehicle integration where you specified a level to charge TO. EVSE integrations you specify how many % to ADD to the car. Leaving the Octopus app set to ADD 100% regardless of how much you need is tariff gaming.

Again, you cant set Zappi to add 100% and Zappi wont have made any such comment.

You set it in the Octopus app.
And myenergi/Zappi have made exactly those statements - here you go

A specific statement saying not to game the system by setting something that would increase the number of slots (which is what you are doing by leaving the Octopus app set to ADD 100% regardless)

https://support.myenergi.com/hc/en-gb/articles/18470101583377-zappi-Intelligent-Octopus-Go#h_01HA1Y1QVRYBZRG7FVVM466X7M

And from the myenergi forums posted by myenergi staff:

2.4.1.7 You must record your operating preferences in the Octopus Energy app, for example what time you need your electric vehicle ready in the morning and how much energy you would like to add to your vehicle.

So by leaving set to ADD 100% you are breaching this. A 'must' in a legal agreement isn't optional ....

100% agree, I have had conversations with the techie's at Octopus and they confirmed all of what I have stated and what you've experienced.

So Octopus have told you it is OK to game the tariff and force additional off peak hours by setting to add way more charge than you actually need? Somehow I doubt that.

FYI Octopus have requested content to be removed from YouTube promoting this type of tariff gaming, so I highly doubt they would confirm to you it is OK.

I would be interested in your explanation of how the objective of helping balancing the grid will be achieved if you request 5 times as much charge as you actually need and the vehicle finishes charging because it is full many many hours before Octopus expect it to? It makes a mockery of the whole ethos and concept of IOG by doing this.

 

[johnb80]

Incorrect. You obviously have no idea of the engagement I have had with Octopus and Ohme on IOG and discussions with Project Managers and Product Owners at both companies regarding this, including Octopus staff such as Phil Steele. You are incorrect.

Thats becuase you set it in the Octopus app .....

The tariff doesn't work like that in the slightest - you are displaying a lack of understanding. Octopus do not deny you the requested charge UNLESS you have not allowed enough time and (7kW multiplied by the lenth of the session). If you ask for 64kWh it will always map 64kWh of charging unless the session length you have specified is less than 9 1/4 hours. That will result in charging being allocated as additional off peak - its tariff gaming if you only need 20kWh of charge.

Only if there is a fault or you are gaming and the car is full hours before Octopus expect it to be. Octopus do NOT restrict the amount of charge based on this mythical concept of if there is cheap or excess electricity floating round the grid.

The i3 was a vehicle integration where you specified a level to charge TO. EVSE integrations you specify how many % to ADD to the car. Leaving the Octopus app set to ADD 100% regardless of how much you need is tariff gaming.

You set it in the Octopus app.
And myenergi/Zappi have made exactly those statements - here you go

A specific statement saying not to game the system by setting something that would increase the number of slots (which is what you are doing by leaving the Octopus app set to ADD 100% regardless)

https://support.myenergi.com/hc/en-gb/articles/18470101583377-zappi-Intelligent-Octopus-Go#h_01HA1Y1QVRYBZRG7FVVM466X7M

And from the myenergi forums posted by myenergi staff:
View attachment 28088

We will have to agree to differ, I have no idea of your engagement with Octopus just as you have no idea about mine. What I have stated is how IOG IS working for me and what I have gleaned from Octopus.

So by leaving set to ADD 100% you are breaching this. A 'must' in a legal agreement isn't optional ....

Oh well, I'll await the electron police battering my door down to arrest me.

So Octopus have told you it is OK to game the tariff and force additional off peak hours by setting to add way more charge than you actually need? Somehow I doubt that.

Octopus have never mentioned 'Gaming' the tariff, your words not theirs.

Doubt as much as you like, i really dont care what you wish to believe.

FYI Octopus have requested content to be removed from YouTube promoting this type of tariff gaming, so I highly doubt they would confirm to you it is OK.

If this type of operation wasnt to their liking they would stop it at source, it would be easy to do with the telemetry theyre getting back from Zappi and other compatable EVSE's / Cars.

I would be interested in your explanation of how the objective of helping balancing the grid will be achieved if you request 5 times as much charge as you actually need and the vehicle finishes charging because it is full many many hours before Octopus expect it to? It makes a mockery of the whole ethos and concept of IOG by doing this.

Simply by requesting energy they are able to set charging schedules, in my case requesting 100% when the MG is the car registered to IOG with 60kWh ish battery isnt the whole picture for them because my i3, Heatpumps, Home Batteries, Washing Machine, Tumble Dryer ALL run at the same time. Even if the car is full after say 30 kWh of charge, the rest of the loads will have taken much more than the 60 kWh Octopus calculated. So your 'ethos' is out of the window with all of this, they supply the whole house load, not just the car as I'm sure you know..

 

[andyvee]

What I have stated is how IOG IS working for me and what I have gleaned from Octopus

Which is wildly incorrect, especially on how the tariff works with this mythical concept of 'if there is cheap or excess electricity' - that is not how the tariff works in the slightest. Octopus do not deny you the amount of charge you request.

You are promoting tariff gaming - which Zappi/myenergi have publicly stated to not do. And the impact of this gaming will be changes to the tariff to the detriment of everyone.

This may be of interest to you

 

[tsedge]

Not sure this argument is taking us forward chaps.

Regarding why Octopus probably doesn't care about individual usages: they are playing a large numbers game where they supply many many thousands of homes with varying demands (well beyond the car itself since the tariff relates to all electricity consumed).

I am sure they can factor in the amount of people who overestimate their car consumption: it will be very easy to measure and predict in the aggregate, rendering it no problem.

 

[andyvee]

isnt the whole picture for them because my i3, Heatpumps, Home Batteries, Washing Machine, Tumble Dryer ALL run at the same time

Which makes it even worse. You are gaming to exploit additional off peak for other loads as well.

i really dont care what you wish to believe.

Wow!

Not sure this argument is taking us forward chaps.

It isn't, you are correct.

I'm surprised the forum allows promotion of tariff gaming TBH.

 

[johnb80]

Not sure this argument is taking us forward chaps.

Regarding why Octopus probably doesn't care about individual usages: they are playing a large numbers game where they supply many many thousands of homes with varying demands (well beyond the car itself since the tariff relates to all electricity consumed).

I am sure they can factor in the amount of people who overestimate their car consumption: it will be very easy to measure and predict in the aggregate, rendering it no problem.

I couldn't agree more

 

[andyvee]

rendering it no problem

Octopus have admitted it IS a problem, especially with EVSE integrations where it can be manipulated.

The Zappi and Wallbox integrations work differently to the Ohme integration and are easier to exploit as they are controlled directly via the Octopus app and GraphQL API. Octopus 'honour' the off peak slots allocated, even if the car has finish charging because it is full. So by leaving it set to ADD 100% you can easily force lots of additional off-peak hours, one could argue 'fraudulently' if you are doing it deliberately to run lots of other high consumption loads and gain financially from it. Yes, they do have the telemetry, and have also stated they are going to take some form of action. All this came to light when Zappi was added to the tariff and a large number started to exploit it very quickly.

The issue didn't arise 18mths earlier when Ohme was added as the first publicly available EVSE (Wallbox was still stuck in beta with a very low number of users at that point) as the whole control and billing mechanism is different with Ohme. The Ohme app controls the charging, not the Octopus app and GraphQL API. At the end of the charge session, the telemetry is sent to Octopus and any additional off-peak is allocated ONLY if the car was ACTIVELY charging outside of 23:30-05:30. So the opportunity to exploit massively by leaving set to ADD 100% regardless of how much you need was limited in comparison.

Anyway, I'm ducking out of this as I've stated my case, which is also the stance of myenergi and Octopus. If people choose not to 'believe' this because they are actively gaming the tariff, then so be it. Lets hope their selfish behaviour does not result in changes in the tariff to the detriment of everyone such as limiting the number of additional off-peak hours available if/when genuinely needed.

 

[johnb80]

Anyway, I'm ducking out of this as I've stated my case, which is also the stance of myenergi and Octopus.

Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

If people choose not to 'believe' this because they are actively gaming the tariff, then so be it.

I dont believe it because it simply isnt the case, it's your interpretation.

Lets hope their selfish behaviour does not result in changes in the tariff to the detriment of everyone such as limiting the number of additional off-peak hours available if/when genuinely needed.

Well Octopus seem happy with me and my account, especially in my saving sessions efforts using IOG to charge the batteries and then export as needed.

The money I donated to charity, I charged the batteries which you would call gaming the system in order to feed in to the grid when demand was high. Again, Octopus were fully aware of what I was doing, I checked first that export would be seen as saving because I couldnt really reduce my almost 0 peak consumption anyway. So they supplied me at 7.5p and I sold back to them at whatever export rate applied at the time.

Wow!

I unreservedly apologise for my rather Brusque response

 

[andyvee]

I dont believe it because it simply isnt the case, it's your interpretation.

Unfortunately it IS the case. Its not MY interpretation, it is also Octopus and MyEnergi, but you believe otherwise.

If you want to let me know your full name and Octopus account number I'll happily flag it to my contacts at Octopus and let them decide if it is abuse or not. Feel free to PM me.

 

[johnb80]

Unfortunately it IS the case. Its not MY interpretation, it is also Octopus and MyEnergi, but you believe otherwise.

If you want to let me know your full name and Octopus account number I'll happily flag it to my contacts at Octopus and let them decide if it is abuse or not. Feel free to PM me.

I'll give the response this deserves.............

Not sure this argument is taking us forward chaps.

Regarding why Octopus probably doesn't care about individual usages: they are playing a large numbers game where they supply many many thousands of homes with varying demands (well beyond the car itself since the tariff relates to all electricity consumed).

I am sure they can factor in the amount of people who overestimate their car consumption: it will be very easy to measure and predict in the aggregate, rendering it no problem.

Just be careful, Andyvee has complained to Octopus about me and I’ve had a conversation with them this afternoon. They confirmed that you shouldn’t always leave it set at 100% but also confirmed they couldn’t see any issues from my account.
So members of the forum beware of Andyvee, he’s a grass ????

 

[andyvee]

So members of the forum beware of Andyvee, he’s a grass

Second insult from you today. I didn't realise that as well as allowing posts promoting gaming a tariff that hurling insults was also par from the course in this forum.

Seems you may have been wrong then after all.

You do realise this is a public forum, there may be people from Octopus already here, and you have your referral code in your signature? I did say I had senior level contacts within Octopus, but you still kept posting how clever you were. I asked Octopus if it was tariff gaming or not. They were quite clear that leaving set to 100% when that isn't what is required to force additional off peak is clearly gaming.

 

[johnb80]

Second insult from you today. I didn't realise that as well as allowing posts promoting gaming a tariff that hurling insults was also par from the course in this forum.

Seems you may have been wrong then after all.

You do realise this is a public forum, there may be people from Octopus already here, and you have your referral code in your signature? I did say I had senior level contacts within Octopus, but you still kept posting how clever you were. I asked Octopus if it was tariff gaming or not. They were quite clear that leaving set to 100% when that isn't what is required to force additional off peak is clearly gaming.

Of course you did ?, well done. What have you achieved?

 

[andyvee]

Of course you did ?, well done. What have you achieved?

Educated the uneducated who were adamant they were correct. Its behaviour like this that puts the tariff, or some benefits of the tariff, at risk for all those using it correctly.

But the selfish don't care about this and believe their gaming is justified. You were presented with plenty of evidence you chose to ignore that your beliefs and assertions were incorrect. Even to point of stating that Octopus said it was OK. Which Octopus have now taken the effort to make clear that it is not OK.

I wasn't the one promoting incorrect usage of the tariff on a public forum and passing it off as endorsed by Octopus to justify the gaming.