MG ZS Hybrid+ high engine revs

[Busman]

Hey Busman

Please let us know if you manage to get the update, and if it does make a difference.

Am looking forward to your results.

Will do!

 

[DMeine]

I will also receive my update on Wednesday and I am really excited.

However, the update will probably not reduce the high rpm as the update is designed to mitigate the loss of power when the battery is empty.

 

[mick78]

I will also receive my update on Wednesday and I am really excited.

However, the update will probably not reduce the high rpm as the update is designed to mitigate the loss of power when the battery is empty.

Yes, from what I understand, the update mostly sets the "charge mode kick in" threshold to 40 instead of 15% as before, so it will charge more often and drive less long on pure EV mode, but have more juice to play with to assist the petrol engine, and will start charging as soon as the car detects a steeper incline, even before that threshold ( I did notice that the system must have some kind of "angle meter", as after steep car park ramps, often the engine will briefly rev up until it realizes its even for a certain length, no matter the charge state or throttle position, and I guess that will now kick in quicker as well) .
I don't think anything was mentioned about high RPM on motorways.

 

[mickel]

Yes, from what I understand, the update mostly sets the "charge mode kick in" threshold to 40 instead of 15% as before, so it will charge more often and drive less long on pure EV mode, but have more juice to play with to assist the petrol engine, and will start charging as soon as the car detects a steeper incline, even before that threshold ( I did notice that the system must have some kind of "angle meter", as after steep car park ramps, often the engine will briefly rev up until it realizes its even for a certain length, no matter the charge state or throttle position, and I guess that will now kick in quicker as well) .
I don't think anything was mentioned about high RPM on motorways.

Hi, I’m just in the process of new car and MG ZS Hybrid + is on my shortlist. From what you just said… will this alter the typical MPG you’d get from the car? Trying to wrap my head around exactly how the MG ZS Hybrid + system works. So when the battery drops to 40 percent it will start charging rather than currrnt 15 percent? How will this impact on fuel consumption? Still don’t completely understand the cars hybrid system and all the different modes. Can someone point be in the right direction to a good explanation.

Thanks in advance

 

[Busman]

Will do!

Had update installed this morning PD052 and PD 050. PD052 is the for the issue as per Car Sauce and other reviewers. PD 050 is an update on ACC radar. Interesting that I was told that the dealerships would not install the updates until they had updated their own Demo models to insure that there were no issues as a result of the update.I will see how the car drives and put up my review later today.The dealerships in the UK have to be aware of PD052, because it has been rolled out in other regions since December.

 

[mick78]

Hi, I’m just in the process of new car and MG ZS Hybrid + is on my shortlist. From what you just said… will this alter the typical MPG you’d get from the car? Trying to wrap my head around exactly how the MG ZS Hybrid + system works. So when the battery drops to 40 percent it will start charging rather than currrnt 15 percent? How will this impact on fuel consumption? Still don’t completely understand the cars hybrid system and all the different modes. Can someone point be in the right direction to a good explanation.

Thanks in advance

Technically, like most HEV, the car has several modes, driving electric, regenerating during braking, driving and charging in various combinations (drive done by low speeds by the electric engines and petrol only charging, petrol driving wheels and charging), and finally, at higher speeds, petrol only. Basically the same a Toyota Hybrid does, though the differences are in detail: the MG uses a 3 speed torque converter automatic, whilst the Toyota system uses a planetary gearbox called eCVT, that in allows for in theory infinite combinations of ICE and electric engine, though the various gearings still mean that above a certain speed, propulsion is mostly done by the petrol engine, and the electric engine whilst being able to maintain speed and accelerate a bit, is used less than in the MG (the Toyota systems also use a smaller battery); That said, the conventional gearbox limits somewhat the combination of scenarios in the MG, even though it makes for a slightly more linear driving feel at higher speeds, as revs tend to build "as we know it", something that eCVTs have often as their weakness. It is also to be noted that the gearing of the engine to gearbox means that below (i believe approx. 40ish km/h), the MG uses exclusively the electric engine to drive, either on battery or on "generator" mode. because the maximum charging the MG can do is 45kW, it also somehow limits the max power at these speeds, meaning that once the battery is empty, the car has basically 45kW at its disposal, which naturally means that starting from a hill or launching feels very sluggish. The other thing is that 3 speeds naturally mean that there are quite considerable differences in engine RPM per gear, and the power differences in every day driving filled by the electric engine and also support the ICE, and that is when it really feels powerful, which works very well as long as the battery has some charge (and the gearing allows for electric support, thus somehow the gear box occasionally hunting for gears at European motorway speeds, particularly in combination with ACC. Another difference to many Hybrids is that the MG doesn't let you go into pure EV mode at the press of a button, just when it decides to do so. Maybe this is already an acknowledgment that running the battery too low is not ideal.

That said, the current update should in theory somehow mitigate the low battery scenarios by more often charging it, thus having maybe a tiny impact on economy, though again with a lower threshold, charging happens less frequent, but then for a longer period, as the top threshold seems untouched. The bigger impact will be on the EV only range, where the MG could claim a much longer distance than any other full hybrid. And it also means, that whilst power Loss will be less of an issue, there will still be scenarios where the system will reach its limits. Just less often.

Mind you though, every hybrid system has their limits (an Alpine road with my back then Toyota Auris Hybrid also left me with some power loss after a while and mostly screaming engine, and loss of regenative mode after a while, but it was a one time scenario in 5 years of ownership), some just are a little more polished thanks to the experience of their maker. And I will also point out, that despite living in the outskirts of the Austrian alps, thus hilly region, I had so far no power loss in my ZS, just the occasional high revs, partly I guess thanks to the ICE running a lot more in winter and thus having a similar "more charging less EV range" effect that the update is supposed to give.

 

[mickel]

Technically, like most HEV, the car has several modes, driving electric, regenerating during braking, driving and charging in various combinations (drive done by low speeds by the electric engines and petrol only charging, petrol driving wheels and charging), and finally, at higher speeds, petrol only. Basically the same a Toyota Hybrid does, though the differences are in detail: the MG uses a 3 speed torque converter automatic, whilst the Toyota system uses a planetary gearbox called eCVT, that in allows for in theory infinite combinations of ICE and electric engine, though the various gearings still mean that above a certain speed, propulsion is mostly done by the petrol engine, and the electric engine whilst being able to maintain speed and accelerate a bit, is used less than in the MG (the Toyota systems also use a smaller battery); That said, the conventional gearbox limits somewhat the combination of scenarios in the MG, even though it makes for a slightly more linear driving feel at higher speeds, as revs tend to build "as we know it", something that eCVTs have often as their weakness. It is also to be noted that the gearing of the engine to gearbox means that below (i believe approx. 40ish km/h), the MG uses exclusively the electric engine to drive, either on battery or on "generator" mode. because the maximum charging the MG can do is 45kw, it also somehow limits the max power at these speeds, meaning that once the battery is empty, the car has basically 45kw at its disposal, which naturally means that starting from a hill or launching feels very sluggish. The other thing is that 3 speeds naturally mean that there are quite considerable differences in engine RPM per gear, and the power differences in every day driving filled by the electric engine and also support the ICE, and that is when it really feels powerful, which works very well as long as the battery has some charge (and the gearing allows for electric support, thus somehow the gear box occasionally hunting for gears at European motorway speeds, particularly in combination with ACC. Another difference to many Hybrids is that the MG doesn't let you go into pure EV mode at the press of a button, just when it decides to do so. Maybe this is already an acknowledgment that running the battery too low is not ideal.

That said, the current update should in theory somehow mitigate the low battery scenarios by more often charging it, thus having maybe a tiny impact on economy, though again with a lower threshold, charging happens less frequent, but then for a longer period, as the top threshold seems untouched. The bigger impact will be on the EV only range, where the MG could claim a much longer distance than any other full hybrid. And it also means, that whilst power Loss will be less of an issue, there will still be scenarios where the system will reach its limits. Just less often.

Mind you though, every hybrid system has their limits (an Alpine road with my back then Toyota Auris Hybrid also left me with some power loss after a while and mostly screaming engine, and loss of regenative mode after a while, but it was a one time scenario in 5 years of ownership), some just are a little more polished thanks to the experience of their maker. And I will also point out, that despite living in the outskirts of the Austrian alps, thus hilly region, I had so far no power loss in my ZS, just the occasional high revs, partly I guess thanks to the ICE running a lot more in winter and thus having a similar "more charging less EV range" effect that the update is supposed to give.

Thanks for the in-depth reply. Puts many of my fears to rest. Judging by where you live, can’t see me experiencing any major issues. I test drove a Toyota Yaris Cross several days ago and it wasn’t perfect. Guess no system is. Perfectly adequate for most scenarios and I’m sure the MG will be similar. Looking forward to test driving.

 

[mickel]

Had update installed this morning PD052 and PD 050.PD052 is the for the issue as per Car Sauce and other reviewers. PD 050 is an update on ACC radar.Interesting that I was told that the dealerships would not install the updates until they had updated their own Demo models to insure that there were no issues as a result of the update.I will see how the car drives and put up my review later today.The dealerships in the UK have to be aware of PD052 , because it has been rolled out in other regions since December.

Looking forward to your assessment after the updates. From what your saying, it’s probably not safe to assume that these updates will be installed on all car sales going forward? Best to check with individual dealer before purchase.

 

[OutLook]

My new MG ZS trophy hybrid is revving very high on some inclines, is this correct. Thanks.

 

[Stuart Wright]

I have changed the title of this thread to reflect the issue.
Which is discussed here

 

[Nico]

Some of the above comments are appreciated but a little too technical for me so I hope you all don't mind if I get a bit basic.
I regularly use a road in mid Wales called Bwlch y Groes.The southern ascent is approximately 1.7 miles (2.7 km) long with severe gradients throughout (steepest 1 in 4). In my old ZS 1.5 petrol I'd approach this at 60 mph and within a few hundred metres the car had slowed to 30 mph and needed many gear changes to get to the summit.
With the ZS hybrid it's a breeze for 90% up and I can easily hold 40-50 mph.
But then I assume the battery depletes and revs pass 5000 with speed reducing significantly. I assume the car is now basically a 3 gear 1.5 petrol.
Is the PD052 update likely to help this situation? If the update doesn't allow the battery to deplete as much then surely I will receive even less support on the hill climb?

 

[Jockster]

OK. Hi, there are some tips and tricks to Hybrids esp if you are not too familiar with them.
If the hybrid battery is low the engine will rev to refill it. If you are stealing power from the engine for Heater and AC it has to work harder. For gradients and hills choose Sport mode
. Regen 1,2 or 3 for going downhill depending on severity of slope. Braking also is regenerating the battery.
I too have the high revving problem. Today no hills and window open 1cm only steering wheel on ( works off 12v not hybrid battery) achieved 65mpg 88mins of driving. It gets better as car is run in and car temp gauge is 3 or 4. (See bottom Right)
Hit pages button, right centre on s wheel. Silver toggle over to right x 2 I think? Just past tyre pressure display. Then toggle up or down there are four useful screens there.
Read my previous posts.

 

[Jockster]

Some of the above comments are appreciated but a little too technical for me so I hope you all don't mind if I get a bit basic.
I regularly use a road in mid Wales called Bwlch y Groes.The southern ascent is approximately 1.7 miles (2.7 km) long with severe gradients throughout (steepest 1 in 4). In my old ZS 1.5 petrol I'd approach this at 60 mph and within a few hundred metres the car had slowed to 30 mph and needed many gear changes to get to the summit.
With the ZS hybrid it's a breeze for 90% up and I can easily hold 40-50 mph.
But then I assume the battery depletes and revs pass 5000 with speed reducing significantly. I assume the car is now basically a 3 gear 1.5 petrol.
Is the PD052 update likely to help this situation? If the update doesn't allow the battery to deplete as much then surely I will receive even less support on the hill climb?

I think the hybrid battery depletes too far. 20% or so isn't enough. Other Hybrids don't let the battery go that far down. Hence high revs I guess??

 

[mick78]

I think the hybrid battery depletes too far. 20% or so isn't enough. Other Hybrids don't let the battery go that far down. Hence high revs I guess??

Technically, the MG has a larger battery than many, so 20% is not (the only) issue. But under full throttle, it should never deplete so far, and driving should be prioritised over charging as well once a critical level of charge is reached.
High RPMs as such are really not uncommon in hybrids, as well as occasionally revs and acceleration/throttle position being out of sync as well, as in theory the system will utilise situations with less load to recharge the battery after it has been used as a booster or sole power source. In a way, the most efficient power to consumption ratio of an ICE is around max torque, so higher RPM for charging is more efficient than lower for operating a generator, especially parallel to driving wheels.

 

[Jockster]

I hapily concur with what you have said. It is a bigger battery and when full you can get formula1 buzz out of it at high speed just on battery but after 3 mins max back to empty and very empty. The other Hybrids can scream at you as if to say don't push me at the moment but they don't leave you dead in water as if a ton of bricks has dropped on you. Very dangerous when overtaking a large lorry knowing that the dual lane road is about to drop to one and other traffic behind you are trying to execute the same manoeuvre with the same urgency. Highly dodge! Worthy of the media covering this in fact.

 

[Busman]

Very dangerous when overtaking a large lorry knowing that the dual lane road is about to drop to one and other traffic behind you are trying to execute the same manoeuvre with the same urgency. Highly dodge! Worthy of the media covering this in fact.

A good idea would be to contact Rogue dealers at the BBC

 

[Jockster]

I did contact one show but only one.

 

[Busman]

I did contact one show but only one.

Rogue dealers on The One Show

 

[mick78]

The other Hybrids can scream at you as if to say don't push me at the moment but they don't leave you dead in water as if a ton of bricks has dropped on you.

I think that the first part is certainly very true. Most hybrids really don't encourage you to a very spirited driving, which the MG certainly does more, given normally there is a lot of power for a small SUV; Unfortunately, the huge electric boost is also part of the problem, as without it, the difference is much more than with others, and pre PD052 really seem to have this running dry problem (although I could so far, in 4 months, not yet reproduce that, and I tried recently with "pumping" the throttle up on Europe's steepest motorway climb, which is around where I live in Austria. The car would just rev higher, and even after a few kilometers starting with 3 bars on the indicator, still would happily accelerate on a steep exit at the end at 90 to 115km/h, still with 3 bars, before I had to break for a stop sign, of course all in the name of science )
Another factor is, that with my Toyota I would not start some overtakes, as a initial scream and not much initial poke would make you consider passing a lorry twice, even if initial, the eCVT would help to keep power more linear than the MG can.

For comparison, it would be interesting to drive a Honda HR-v/Jazz Hybrid (that in theory works very similar, with only 1 gear available for direct drive or a Nissan Qashqai hybrid, as those also mainly rely on electric driving and use the petrol for directly driving only at higher (motorway) speeds, how they react to depleting at speeds not ideal for the gearing of engine to directly driving. I have driven a Honda briefly twice, and I had the impression that anything above say half throttle it immediately started screaming, again not really encouraging you to a spirited way of driving, even though outright power is quite okay, as drive happened through the electric engine. But I didn't get to drive it in "extreme" scenarios. The Nissan I have no personal experience with.

 

[Jockster]

Rogue dealers on The One Show

It's a whatsapp contact. They won't act on one solitary comment. Help everyone!