Alb
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That would be my guess.
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jpvdheijn
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Well a rubbing hose will not be a good reason for rejecting the car. It in essence could be cause by anything from road debris or like mentioned a assembly error. Fix the hose and enjoy the car.
emmrecs
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I'm sorry to say I disagree! Especially if the bolded phrase is the reason for the failure!
Surely, any "assembly error" should not happen if quality control is properly implemented, especially for such a crucial piece of safety equipment as a brake fluid hose.
I'm also not even sure how road debris or like could be deemed to be apparently "acceptable" as a cause (or at least not a good enough reason for rejecting the car) since the outcome of the "fault" for the occupants of the car could have been potentially fatal.
Lovemyev
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After studying the new pictures, straight away I had concerns over the shape / condition of that metal brake pipe, that is attached to the flexible brake pipe.
Then secondly after then reading the written report, it also picked up on what is likely to be the same metal brake line damage, that I think I can see.
I deliberately studied the picture evidence myself, BEFORE reading the report you notice.
It also refers to a missing brake line retaining clip, which is clearly not there.
Here is my two pennies worth of what has happened, not facts but based on experience of working in a dealership and a secondment of 12 months of working in a car assembly plant.
The front and rear sub assemblies will be fully complete when they are mated with the body shell.
At the rear the flexible brake hoses will already be attached to the brake callipers, but the opposite end will need to be routed up to that bracket that you can see attached / spot welded to the inner whee arch.
The flexible pipe will be passed through the hole in the bracket and locked into place with a spring steel horse shoe shaped clip.
The hole in the bracket will have been produced with two flats on either side of the metal union, the metal union on the flex pipe will have two corresponding flats, that locks into that bracket, preventing the pipe from turning, when the union on the metal brake line that runs front to back is tightened to the correct torque setting.
So, for some reason that retaining clip was never installed, maybe there was an issue with the hole produced in the bracket ?.
This process has been skipped and the flexible pipe is not locked into the bracket.
When the union on the metal pipe is tightened, it wants to rotate the flexible brake pipe with it !.
This has the effect of turning both the flex pipe and also puts a twist in the metal brake line.
As the pipe is tightened, it twists both pipes in the direction of the road wheel.
But this can not been even at this point, because the car does not have its wheels yet.
The braking system is filled with fluid and goes through a pressure testing test.
It passes this test because the unions are right, but the alignment is incorrect !.
Wheels are fitted and the reduced clearance between the road wheel and the brake pipe is not spotted, because the car is still attached to the assembly track with the wheels hanging down in the unweighted condition ( wheels clear of the ground ).
Shortly after this the car part company with the over head cradle and for the first time, the car is sitting on the ground and the foul condition has commenced.
The clips that was never installed, with a value of about 1p was where the problem started in my opinion.
It never lost the clip after because although this not correct, the pipe would have been held in its correct orientation at least.
After studying / working at a large car assembly plant, you get to see what happens first hand.
The assembly worker is trained to carry out a task in a very time controlled environment and He / She has not additional time for any issues to arise.
They are not trained or skilled enough to deal with anything other than a situation where everything is presented 100% perfect.
If that bracket on the body was slightly defective in any way and the assembly worker was not able to secure that clip, he / she skips onto the second phase of the task, which could be fitting and tightening the metal brake pipe.
The production line never stops !.
I have personal seen cars arrive off the end of the production line with rear anti roll bars sitting, where the back seat should be.
When removed from the production line and checked, the four holes that the roll bar attaches to, had masking tape still covering the holes in the bodyshell.
These two 2 inches pieces of tape had bee removed after the under body had received its weather protection ( under seal if you like ).
So, holes present to the operator, no anti roll bar gets installed !.
This is only one very small example of what happens in the assembly process.
It really opens your eyes ? I can tell you.
Assembly lines are very repetitive and can be a 24 hour process and are complete work of art that works fine 99% of the time.
But at 2.00am in the morning, tiredness can be seen as danger.
Part of my job, was to completely at random, pluck out a car leaving the assembly line and go right through it front to back looking for faults and providing feedback to the assembly line on any issues and improvement ideas ?.
I am pretty convinced these counter measures don’t happen any more !.
Then secondly after then reading the written report, it also picked up on what is likely to be the same metal brake line damage, that I think I can see.
I deliberately studied the picture evidence myself, BEFORE reading the report you notice.
It also refers to a missing brake line retaining clip, which is clearly not there.
Here is my two pennies worth of what has happened, not facts but based on experience of working in a dealership and a secondment of 12 months of working in a car assembly plant.
The front and rear sub assemblies will be fully complete when they are mated with the body shell.
At the rear the flexible brake hoses will already be attached to the brake callipers, but the opposite end will need to be routed up to that bracket that you can see attached / spot welded to the inner whee arch.
The flexible pipe will be passed through the hole in the bracket and locked into place with a spring steel horse shoe shaped clip.
The hole in the bracket will have been produced with two flats on either side of the metal union, the metal union on the flex pipe will have two corresponding flats, that locks into that bracket, preventing the pipe from turning, when the union on the metal brake line that runs front to back is tightened to the correct torque setting.
So, for some reason that retaining clip was never installed, maybe there was an issue with the hole produced in the bracket ?.
This process has been skipped and the flexible pipe is not locked into the bracket.
When the union on the metal pipe is tightened, it wants to rotate the flexible brake pipe with it !.
This has the effect of turning both the flex pipe and also puts a twist in the metal brake line.
As the pipe is tightened, it twists both pipes in the direction of the road wheel.
But this can not been even at this point, because the car does not have its wheels yet.
The braking system is filled with fluid and goes through a pressure testing test.
It passes this test because the unions are right, but the alignment is incorrect !.
Wheels are fitted and the reduced clearance between the road wheel and the brake pipe is not spotted, because the car is still attached to the assembly track with the wheels hanging down in the unweighted condition ( wheels clear of the ground ).
Shortly after this the car part company with the over head cradle and for the first time, the car is sitting on the ground and the foul condition has commenced.
The clips that was never installed, with a value of about 1p was where the problem started in my opinion.
It never lost the clip after because although this not correct, the pipe would have been held in its correct orientation at least.
After studying / working at a large car assembly plant, you get to see what happens first hand.
The assembly worker is trained to carry out a task in a very time controlled environment and He / She has not additional time for any issues to arise.
They are not trained or skilled enough to deal with anything other than a situation where everything is presented 100% perfect.
If that bracket on the body was slightly defective in any way and the assembly worker was not able to secure that clip, he / she skips onto the second phase of the task, which could be fitting and tightening the metal brake pipe.
The production line never stops !.
I have personal seen cars arrive off the end of the production line with rear anti roll bars sitting, where the back seat should be.
When removed from the production line and checked, the four holes that the roll bar attaches to, had masking tape still covering the holes in the bodyshell.
These two 2 inches pieces of tape had bee removed after the under body had received its weather protection ( under seal if you like ).
So, holes present to the operator, no anti roll bar gets installed !.
This is only one very small example of what happens in the assembly process.
It really opens your eyes ? I can tell you.
Assembly lines are very repetitive and can be a 24 hour process and are complete work of art that works fine 99% of the time.
But at 2.00am in the morning, tiredness can be seen as danger.
Part of my job, was to completely at random, pluck out a car leaving the assembly line and go right through it front to back looking for faults and providing feedback to the assembly line on any issues and improvement ideas ?.
I am pretty convinced these counter measures don’t happen any more !.
emmrecs
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BugEyed
Prominent Member
There's two separate issues here:
- You can reject a car very easily in the first month, and this defect would allow it. After one month the dealer has to be given the opportunity to rectify the car which appears simple.
- There's still no explanation for why the braking failed entirely, if it indeed did.
Lovemyev
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My view only ?.
If this had happened with my wife and children was in the car, then that would be enough for me.
Although the report is trying to play down the seriousness and importance of this catastrophe brake failure.
You do NOT get anymore serious than a complete brake failure condition.
Had this been caused by a defective internal component failure that was hidden and could have gone undetected, then that is a slightly different case.
Had this been a used car, then again tracing the history of the car makes it a dark path to go down.
But this was a brand new car and that changes everything.
I would put this question to the branch manger.
“If YOU had purchased a brand new car, in order to keep your family safe and secure and then shortly after delivery, it had a complete and utter brake failure, that could have resulted in numerous fatalities, would you truthfully consider putting you family BACK into that car ?”.
NO !.
You have rightfully lost all confidence in that car now and for that reason alone I would like to reject the car and have my money back please !.
If this had happened with my wife and children was in the car, then that would be enough for me.
Although the report is trying to play down the seriousness and importance of this catastrophe brake failure.
You do NOT get anymore serious than a complete brake failure condition.
Had this been caused by a defective internal component failure that was hidden and could have gone undetected, then that is a slightly different case.
Had this been a used car, then again tracing the history of the car makes it a dark path to go down.
But this was a brand new car and that changes everything.
I would put this question to the branch manger.
“If YOU had purchased a brand new car, in order to keep your family safe and secure and then shortly after delivery, it had a complete and utter brake failure, that could have resulted in numerous fatalities, would you truthfully consider putting you family BACK into that car ?”.
NO !.
You have rightfully lost all confidence in that car now and for that reason alone I would like to reject the car and have my money back please !.
akendall1966
Established Member
Report it to the DVSA they have the power to force a recall for serious defects.
www.gov.uk
Vehicle recalls and faults
What to do if your vehicle, vehicle part or accessory is recalled, has a registered fault and how to report serious safety defect you find
Deep purple
Established Member
From what has been revealed in these posts it would appear to be an assembly issue which could be present on any vehicle. Surely this could have such serious consequences that it ought to be a vehicle recall for inspection?
What is MG doing about this? I would imagine not a lot. Whilst I love most of the car I am not at all impressed with the dealer network and MG manufacturer support.
What is MG doing about this? I would imagine not a lot. Whilst I love most of the car I am not at all impressed with the dealer network and MG manufacturer support.
Lguk
Established Member
I would take up the poor PDI with the supplying dealer. That brake line clearly doesn't look like the other side or other vehicles and should have been spotted.
Given the seriousness of brake failure, due to their lack of check I would be discussing options to change vehicle due to lack of confidence in the rest of build quality, an outright reject however may be deemed a step too far.
Given the seriousness of brake failure, due to their lack of check I would be discussing options to change vehicle due to lack of confidence in the rest of build quality, an outright reject however may be deemed a step too far.
As far as I can tell one hose on one wheel has been damaged so that should result in 50% of the cars braking ability being lost the report gives no reason to why the complete braking system failed other than to say, there was no brake fluid one damaged hose on one corner of a vehicle should not cause this to happen I would not be happy with that report at all. And would dispute it and maybe request the AA or even employ an independent company to investigate why you experienced a100% loss of braking.
Les
Les
BugEyed
Prominent Member
Do they do anything more than wash the car?
Seriously though, this should not have left the factory in that state. What other safety critical systems are being left liable to fail by assembly issues?
guan147
Standard Member
Hi everyone, so the dealer who supplied the vehicle are not really offering me much help at all, they have the report and photos I posted above, and have given me the following response:
Unfortunately, we are unable to processed with the rejection at the moment. The fault is unknown and we are waiting for more information from the garage.
The next steps forward we will be in contact with the garage and continue to chase for more information. Once we have the details we will be in contact with the update.
Honestly it is quite embarrassing as the person speaking to me from the dealer actually asked me to send him a screen shot from the MG5 manual that describes how the dual brake circuits operate!!
I think I am completely wasting my time unless I am prepared to go down the legal route to force them to actually give a considered response. Also doesn’t help they don’t have the car so I was considering whether they should collect the vehicle to do their own inspection.
We may end up having it repaired and selling it to minimise the financial loss and to get us into a replacement vehicle ASAP. I’ve not even been offered a courtesy car by anyone!
In summary, they really don’t care!! ?
Unfortunately, we are unable to processed with the rejection at the moment. The fault is unknown and we are waiting for more information from the garage.
The next steps forward we will be in contact with the garage and continue to chase for more information. Once we have the details we will be in contact with the update.
Honestly it is quite embarrassing as the person speaking to me from the dealer actually asked me to send him a screen shot from the MG5 manual that describes how the dual brake circuits operate!!
I think I am completely wasting my time unless I am prepared to go down the legal route to force them to actually give a considered response. Also doesn’t help they don’t have the car so I was considering whether they should collect the vehicle to do their own inspection.
We may end up having it repaired and selling it to minimise the financial loss and to get us into a replacement vehicle ASAP. I’ve not even been offered a courtesy car by anyone!
In summary, they really don’t care!! ?
emmrecs
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@guan147
The attitude of your dealer is, perhaps, understandable, to a point; as you say, they've not seen the car so I think your suggestion that they should recover it to their own premises is a perfectly reasonable point to make to them. Then they cannot attempt to hide behind any screen of the fault is unknown. They might also then be rather more inclined to offer you a courtesy car!
In addition, I think you were previously advised that DVSA ought to be involved; I think you should definitely notify them of a defect whose result could have been catastrophic or even fatal. If yours is the only car affected and no-one else reports a complete brake failure then at least the problem has been "recorded", officially. OTOH, should yours be the first of possibly several, they will want as much evidence as possible to be able to investigate and, if necessary, demand that MG issue a warning to all MG5 FL owners or even a full recall.
The attitude of your dealer is, perhaps, understandable, to a point; as you say, they've not seen the car so I think your suggestion that they should recover it to their own premises is a perfectly reasonable point to make to them. Then they cannot attempt to hide behind any screen of the fault is unknown. They might also then be rather more inclined to offer you a courtesy car!
In addition, I think you were previously advised that DVSA ought to be involved; I think you should definitely notify them of a defect whose result could have been catastrophic or even fatal. If yours is the only car affected and no-one else reports a complete brake failure then at least the problem has been "recorded", officially. OTOH, should yours be the first of possibly several, they will want as much evidence as possible to be able to investigate and, if necessary, demand that MG issue a warning to all MG5 FL owners or even a full recall.
Lovemyev
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How far apart are the two dealerships ?.
Have you considered calling MG Recovery and ask them to pick up the car and deliver it to the supplying dealership !.
Make sure you instruct the recovery driver to drop the car right in front of the access door they use to present customer hand overs, of new cars and place a large note in the front window.
Lock it and leave with the keys in your pocket.
When they call you, tell them that car is still YOUR property and that they DO NOT have your permission to move it.
If they attempt to move it without your direct permission, you will call the police and it will treated as theft of a motor vehicle just for one.
Unless they just what to buy it back there and then of course ?.
Tell them you are in no hurry now to return with the keys, until somebody is willing to give you straight answer on the progress on your car !.
When the recovery people picked up your car the first time, they should have asked you if you needed a replacement car ?.
If you request a car, they will soon sort you out with a car for a couple of days, just to get you mobile.
One of the dealers SHOULD have contacted the MG After sales team and requested a replacement car by now !.
If the MG After Sales authorises the request for a hire car, the dealer will contact a local hire company and THEY will contact you directly to supply a car ASAP.
Give the circumstances and seriousness of this failure, providing you with a hire car should have already been done by now !.
Is the car on lease / PCP by any chance, if so these people have a interest in this car.
I would contact them and explain the situation.
Of course in situations like this, things take time to process and the wheels turn really slowly, but it could and should have been handled much much better than this by either dealership at first, instead of this game of pass the parcel.
guan147
Standard Member
Hello everyone, we continue to receive very little support from the MG dealers and MG UK tell us we need to go via the dealers. Our request of rejecting the vehicle has been declined. The dealer who supplied the car is saying the dealer inspecting the car cannot provide them with a cause for the fault. They say as it is over 30 days but under 6 months, it has to be a warranty repair.
Fundamentally we do not have trust that the vehicle would be safe following a warranty repair.
Would anyone have any advice on what our next action should be. We are currently considering the following:
1) Arranging an independent inspection of the vehicle by a company recommended by the Motor Ombudsman (at cost to us of course) - initial estimates suggest this might cost as little as £200-300.
2) Raising a dispute with the Motor Ombudsman in relation to the dealer who supplied and the fact they will not help us further beyond a repair / part X
3) Notifying the DVSA of the fault to see if they take action with manufacturer
4) Raising a formal complaint with the manufacturer (should we be going to them rather than the dealer if our concern is based around assembly/design?)
5) Instructing the dealer who has the car to complete the repair under warranty and then having it inspected to determine its safety - as if not safe the dealer is then obliged to offer a rejection having attempted repair - however even then they do not have to offer full purchase price, they can reduce for use of vehicle - how much I do not know.
6) Part X the vehicle following a warranty repair, however figures quoted suggest we would lose £7k from purchase price.
What would be the correct way of us determining independently of an assembly fault and/or a design fault increasing the likelihood of this incident occurring?
What would be the sensible next course of action (without being emotional about it!!).
Thanks again!
Fundamentally we do not have trust that the vehicle would be safe following a warranty repair.
Would anyone have any advice on what our next action should be. We are currently considering the following:
1) Arranging an independent inspection of the vehicle by a company recommended by the Motor Ombudsman (at cost to us of course) - initial estimates suggest this might cost as little as £200-300.
2) Raising a dispute with the Motor Ombudsman in relation to the dealer who supplied and the fact they will not help us further beyond a repair / part X
3) Notifying the DVSA of the fault to see if they take action with manufacturer
4) Raising a formal complaint with the manufacturer (should we be going to them rather than the dealer if our concern is based around assembly/design?)
5) Instructing the dealer who has the car to complete the repair under warranty and then having it inspected to determine its safety - as if not safe the dealer is then obliged to offer a rejection having attempted repair - however even then they do not have to offer full purchase price, they can reduce for use of vehicle - how much I do not know.
6) Part X the vehicle following a warranty repair, however figures quoted suggest we would lose £7k from purchase price.
What would be the correct way of us determining independently of an assembly fault and/or a design fault increasing the likelihood of this incident occurring?
What would be the sensible next course of action (without being emotional about it!!).
Thanks again!
Hi again guan147 this is most annoying for you I’m sure and it is very difficult to advise you I did say earlier in the thread an independent motor engineer may be of help the ombudsman will only act if your dealer is registered to there services MG Motors I have been told buy the ombudsman are not, so I other you have not mentioned is if your have legal cover with your car insurance you can seek advice from them as CaB can be helpful plus RAC and AA legal services.
I spoke the other day with the ombudsman with concern with an issue with the MG4 and there told me MG motors are not on there listing but some of there dealership are if you contact them they will tell you if your dealer is or not
And as this is an issue of safety I would also report it to the DVSA but as this is only one of 2 reports I have seen on brake failure I’m not sure they would be of any help I wish you the best of luck with this issue but I think the outcome may will be a warranty repair I’m sorry to say not what you want I know.
Les
I spoke the other day with the ombudsman with concern with an issue with the MG4 and there told me MG motors are not on there listing but some of there dealership are if you contact them they will tell you if your dealer is or not
And as this is an issue of safety I would also report it to the DVSA but as this is only one of 2 reports I have seen on brake failure I’m not sure they would be of any help I wish you the best of luck with this issue but I think the outcome may will be a warranty repair I’m sorry to say not what you want I know.
Les
guan147
Standard Member
Thanks Les - the dealer we bought from is registered with the ombudsman. We think we should have an independent inspection, insurers and finance company not able to help sadly.
Deep purple
Established Member
There are two separate but related issues.
Firstly and a major concern to all of us, why did you suffer complete brake failure with a defect on only one of the split circuits. This is unacceptable and unsafe and is a design issue. We need to get to the bottom of this.
Secondly the poor installation of the flexible pipe which seems to be a one off. If the pipe is replaced pointing in the right direction then this issue is finished and will not reoccur.
If the dealer sorts out your flexible and checks fully there are no other assembly issues then that is the end of this problem and I suggest you would have a hard job rejecting the car as it is now fixed. You could ask for an independent inspection as a back up.
But that still leaves the issue of the design of the split system which, until a satisfactory explanation is provided, remains a question mark over whether the vehicle is fit for purpose.
Both issues should be flagged to DVSA. A recall would resolve the pipe rubbing issue. However the manufacturer would have to justify the safety of the design of the split system in event of a hose failure, which ultimately could require a modification to all cars.
Firstly and a major concern to all of us, why did you suffer complete brake failure with a defect on only one of the split circuits. This is unacceptable and unsafe and is a design issue. We need to get to the bottom of this.
Secondly the poor installation of the flexible pipe which seems to be a one off. If the pipe is replaced pointing in the right direction then this issue is finished and will not reoccur.
If the dealer sorts out your flexible and checks fully there are no other assembly issues then that is the end of this problem and I suggest you would have a hard job rejecting the car as it is now fixed. You could ask for an independent inspection as a back up.
But that still leaves the issue of the design of the split system which, until a satisfactory explanation is provided, remains a question mark over whether the vehicle is fit for purpose.
Both issues should be flagged to DVSA. A recall would resolve the pipe rubbing issue. However the manufacturer would have to justify the safety of the design of the split system in event of a hose failure, which ultimately could require a modification to all cars.
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