Battery isolation fault help

Just be aware, those cells will be really out of balance.
What do people think of individually charging each cell to 100% before reinstalling?
I intend on doing exactly that. All modules will need to be charged to the same voltage prior to me rebuilding the pack.
Will take me a week or more probably as i only have a small lab power supply to charge with but depends on what voltage I want to balance them to. I'm thinking 40-50% of capacity.

David
 
Good afternoon all ,
Have stripped the pack completely and taken out all 18 modules. 12 of the modules have problems. I have done a resistance test on each module and for the good ones the number rises until it comes to number one, the others when I do an individual test from the positive to the casing of the battery module the numbers range from 7.2, 2.4, 14.3 so these somehow are leaking to their own cases. There is a lot of oxidisation on the modules themselves at the bottom where they have been sat in water please see picture below.
17209617296025815885949144813520.jpg

Some of the oxidisation has already come off. But it is strange that the cells within the module must be making contact with the case somehow.
I am wondering if there is a way of taking these apart in order to clean them properly, or if it is just a case of using the electrical contact cleaner to clean it as much as possible.
David

17209619532579037391089963152785.jpg

As you can see in this one the corrosion and oxidisation on the base of the battery is much more severe than the other ones. Any thoughts? I will clean them with a toothbrush and the electrical contact cleaner.
 
Any thoughts?
Just this: It looks like the cells themselves might be fairly well sealed inside that black potting compound, unless that's just a thin plastic sheet or similar. It's not easy to tell from the photo.

I would actually start with one of the lesser oxidised modules, and see if it can be brought to near perfection. If so, the others will hopefully also be salvageable, just more work. If the problem is mostly or completely this oxidisation on top of the sealing goo, then this is looking tractable.

It might also be worth opening one presumed good module, to see if they also have oxidation, that just hasn't made a complete path as yet. It might make them more resilient to moisture to clean them as well. But that can probably wait. If none of the least leaky modules can be saved, you might save a fair bit of work.
 
Thanks Coulomb.
The ones that are ok were not exposed to whatever the liquid was in the first 2 sections of the pack. There is no oxidisation or any marking on them at all and they are showing maximum resistance rating compared to the others.
My plan is to clean them as much as I can and charge them individually and then test again. Will try to get the modules to the same voltage and if the cleaning and resistance issues go, then rebuild the pack and go from there.
Many thanks,

David
 
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I agree with @Coulomb start with an easy module. Flush them with lots of contact cleaner fluid especially around the terminals at the top. Scrub with a plastic brush and try to get under the strapping with something. See how it goes. I'm not so concerned about the bottom of the module but best to clean it up to defend against future damage development.
 
You don't think the oxidisation is the issue then?

I cant see anything wrong with the tops but I will clean all and then make sure the bottoms cleaned too. Will then retest and update here on if its made a difference or not.

David
 
Hi David. I'm not sure that the oxidization on the bottom outer shell would cause the leakage in and of itself unless its penetrated the aluminium jackets. If it has penetrated the jackets then its game over anyway. It still remains more likely to be leakage due to oxidization between metal parts around the tops where the terminals are. Hence the need to thoroughly soak the tops in contact cleaner. Ive seen this before on more than a few occasions.

Ray
 
Thanks MozFromOz.

You'll have to forgive my sinicism as I've never done this before and to think I cannot see something which is affecting the module goes against all in my head :) but everyday is a new adventure and we never stop learning so I can tick this off the list.
I will try to get at least 3 cleaned today before I go back to work in the afternoon and will see the results tomorrow.
Fingers crossed or i'll be looking for 12 modules.......

David

Good evening all.
I have cleaned the terminals and the cases of the 3 modules i brought home.
I have a lab power supply but am concerned how it works, setup..... as i don't trust leaving it. I cannot get it to the right voltage which i believe is 21.9? I can get to 21.5 on 1 battery, 21.85 on the second and 21.66 on the 3rd. TBH i don't know what I'm doing and didn't want to leave it overnight whilst I'm at work in case something failed.
Wish i could have found a charger that was just a plug and play. Please see pics

Quick question,

If the system is 400v then /18 modules - 22.2v each, then is this what i need to charge each module to? Need to find a small 20 amp charger that can charge to a set voltage limit.

David
 

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I cannot get it to the right voltage which i believe is 21.9?
I recommend only charging to the highest module voltage. So they are all the same voltage when you put them back. At 108W, it would take over 11 days to charge the battery from 30-100%, not counting time to connect and disconnect etc.
system is 400v
It's a 400V class vehicle, as opposed to an 800V class. It actually charges to 449V (originally 455V), which is 4.16V per cell, or 26.4V per 6-cell module. You mentioned 21.5V, that's 3.58V per cell. You don't want to let any NMC cell go below 3.0V, preferably not below 3.5V.

When you connect the power supply, the module's voltage won't instantly change. Actually, if a cell is ruined and has high internal resistance, that can happen, and if so the cell is unlikely to recover. Let's say you set the voltage to 21.9 and the battery is initially at say 21.6V. You might see the voltage on the supply drop from 21.9 to say 21.77. That's normal and expected. There is resistance in the leads, and some internal resistance in the battery, and weird effects like hysteresis. The current is 4.995A because you set the limit to 5.0A. The slight difference is common and negligible. After some time, say half an hour, the voltage shown on the supply will tick up to 21.78, then 21.79, and so on.

As it aporoaches 21.9V, say at 21.85V, the current is likely to taper off a lot, meaning it could take days to actually stop at 21.9V. So you might want to set the limit to say 30.0V (possibly the limit of your power supply), and keep watching the voltage. The voltage rise will be very appropriately linear, so you could calculate a time when it should be close, and set an alarm or use a timer.

It's quite possible that the module voltage will relax back to a lower voltage after you stop charging it. Ut might take a few minutes to settle down. So you might have to charge to say 29.2V to get a module that settles at 29.0V.

It would be worth checking each cell's voltage while it's charging. If one falls more than say 0.1V behind the others, then charge just that cell by itself. If two happen to be low and they are next to each other, you could charge two at once.
 
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Thanks for that. If i have to charge each module, would it not be better to buy a 24v charger of some sort? Or a hybrid inverter to just use as a charger?
I hadn't thought about charging several at once as i wasn't sure what the voltage per module maximum was. I don't know if i was to link in parallel the + and the -'s would the modules balance the voltage between all of the modules?
At least then I'd have a chance of charging all of them to the same voltage before rebuilding the pack.
On top of that, if i took my 48v hybrid inverter, and connected 4 modules in parallel, i would be able to set the voltage to 50v and then i could charge at a rate of anything from 10 up to 150 amps. Maybe thats a better way??
Connect 4 modules together, take the feed from my inverter directly, and set it up for 50v @ 50 amps then i could charge all 18 fairly quickly? Wondering how i could link all the modules together for 24 hours to balance between themselves then i could split into 4's and charge probably in a day or so.
Thoughts please? Or am i going about this thr wrong and possibly unsafe way?
 
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If i have to charge each module, would it not be better to buy a 24v charger of some sort?
Usually a 24 V charger would be suitable for lead acid (charging to 28.8 V), which also suits 8S LFP. But that sort of voltage works better for 7S NMC, which is not convenient.

I hadn't thought about charging several at once as i wasn't sure what the voltage per module maximum was. I don't know if i was to link in parallel the + and the -'s would the modules balance the voltage between all of the modules?
That will tend to equalise the modules, but not the cells within each module. It also takes a long time, and the voltage drops make it less than ideal. Much less. Unless you use copper bars and bolts. I would not recommend it.

if i took my 48v hybrid inverter, and connected 4 modules in parallel, i would be able to set the voltage to 50v and then i could charge at a rate of anything from 10 up to 150 amps. Maybe thats a better way??
That would be a quick way to charge the modules fully, yes. But NOTE: you need pairs of modules in series, and you can parallel a few strings if you like. I would use 49.9 V as the target voltage (nearest to 499 / (18/2)). But I'm nervous about charging so high a voltage with known unbalanced cells, and no battery management system in place.

What you could perhaps do is charge them up to about 23 V per module (46 V total), but unfortunately the inverter will probably think that your 48 V battery is at a dangerously low voltage.

I recommend starting with the lab power supply, as the cells are in an unknown state, and 5 A is nice and gentle, yet will get things moving.

If you can make up a pair of leads with banana plugs at one end and an 8 mm (?) eye terminal at the other, and bolt the cables to the module, that will at least minimise cable resistance. Clip leads can drop several tenths of a volt at five amps. Preferably use at least 1.5 mm² wire. The low resistance will allow for more current near the power supply's set point, allowing you to more confidently and quickly get the module to a desired voltage.

As a point of interest, have you used a multimeter to measure the resistance from battery terminals to metal case? While it's not as definitive as the 500 V megger, it will give you a good indication as to whether you are reducing the leakage, or more toothbrush work is needed. Voltage measurements might also be useful, especially if you find that you get a solid reading.

I wouldn't connect them in parallel while they are at different voltages, the current flow could be too high.
In my experience, it's not a problem, but my experience is mainly with LFP cells, which have a much flatter voltage curve.

So yes, probably wait with paralleling until the voltages are pretty close, say 0.2 V difference maximum.
 
Usually a 24 V charger would be suitable for lead acid (charging to 28.8 V), which also suits 8S LFP. But that sort of voltage works better for 7S NMC, which is not convenient.


That will tend to equalise the modules, but not the cells within each module. It also takes a long time, and the voltage drops make it less than ideal. Much less. Unless you use copper bars and bolts. I would not recommend it.


That would be a quick way to charge the modules fully, yes. But NOTE: you need pairs of modules in series, and you can parallel a few strings if you like. I would use 49.9 V as the target voltage (nearest to 499 / (18/2)). But I'm nervous about charging so high a voltage with known unbalanced cells, and no battery management system in place.

What you could perhaps do is charge them up to about 23 V per module (46 V total), but unfortunately the inverter will probably think that your 48 V battery is at a dangerously low voltage.

I recommend starting with the lab power supply, as the cells are in an unknown state, and 5 A is nice and gentle, yet will get things moving.

If you can make up a pair of leads with banana plugs at one end and an 8 mm (?) eye terminal at the other, and bolt the cables to the module, that will at least minimise cable resistance. Clip leads can drop several tenths of a volt at five amps. Preferably use at least 1.5 mm² wire. The low resistance will allow for more current near the power supply's set point, allowing you to more confidently and quickly get the module to a desired voltage.

As a point of interest, have you used a multimeter to measure the resistance from battery terminals to metal case? While it's not as definitive as the 500 V megger, it will give you a good indication as to whether you are reducing the leakage, or more toothbrush work is needed. Voltage measurements might also be useful, especially if you find that you get a solid reading.
I bought a 250v/500/1000v resistance tester, not expensive.

I have started with each module before, both volts to case and resistance at 500v, then clean and re-test the same and record the results.
 
That make sense, but I've read that battery voltage needs to be very exact to accurately indicate % of charge. You may need a few decimal places.
I can recommend the Iso-Tech IDM505 for this purpose, which is an inexpensive 5.5 digit (100,000 count) large handheld multimeter (APPA 505) with 0.015% basic DC V Accuracy. For those on a budget, you can get a cheapie 6000 Chinese for £15, calibrate it to 4.000V and check it regularly. (so, will do 4.200V to allow relative measurement)
 

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