Bricked at the charger - should there be a nationwide recall?

[Lovemyev]

In the whirlwind of activity around the failure it is hard to know exactly what happened when and therefore doubt creeps in. I am pretty confident it wasn't user error but.......
The AA guy tried a new 12v battery in the hope that would clear the problem. No joy.
The dealer has tried drain tests, I believe without success. They have ordered up a new battery under warranty. It's due here on Thursday.
So far the dealer has just cleared the fault codes. (Its interesting the AA man couldn't although there is plenty on testimony n the forum about this being a bit and miss affair. The AA man was using a computer which he described as 'the new million pound computer we were given last week'.)
I have not persuaded the dealer to seek out the MG Tech advice and then upload the new EVCC sofware fix for Aug 21 manufacture LRs.

The diag machine that the recovery guys carry around, although very good, is a multi generic type that is best suited for most cars on the road today.
My guess would be that the MG diag machine has the ability to dig deeper into the menus.
The software programs are aimed directly at the MG models.
My feeling here ( as I said before ) is that the dealer intends to clear the codes, then to install a new 12 volt battery.
I am going to assume that they are either acting under instruction from MG or they are trying to correct the problem themselves, ?.
Then re-run the diag and if the car throws up a problem, then they will contact MG Tech.

 

[Alb]

There is a standard OBD protocol but that doesn't stop a manufacturer from customising access to specific parameters.

 

[DuracellBunny]

No mine didn’t say stop safely, I think it was just “System Fault - HV battery shut off”

Same on m MG5 and I have noticed the 12v voltage clocked dropped from 14v to 12v

 

[Ozzie1989]

There is a standard OBD protocol but that doesn't stop a manufacturer from customising access to specific parameters.

Absolutely spot on. OBD is just one protocol that has been standardised across all vehicles.

Look at Ford for example, a typical transit has 7 main ECUs, Engine Control Module (ECM), Body Control Module (BCM), Stability Control Module and so on...

They all feed certain parameters into OBD but crucially not all.

There are also generally two or more CAN buses, high speed and low speed are common but some marques have others for specific functions too.

This is why proper diagnostic tools cost thousands and often updates to include new vehicles is a paid for/subscription service due to the work involved.

In the case of Ford someone clever enough and with enough knowledge developed FORscan, so it's open to the masses, but that's a pretty unique situation I believe.

 

[hmadsen]

From what i have read, the car manufacturers have been forced to have some standard when it comes to codes and protocol, regarding the Engine ECU, this means that any generic reader should be able to communicate with the Engine ECU.

Offcourse the picture gets a bit muddled, when it comes to EV's as it gets a bit more iffy, what is actually considered an engine ECU.

On a ICE car, the Engine ECU is the one that controls the engine, spark, injectors, crank sensors, camshaft sensors, throttle body position and so on.

Any module other than that, is a totally different thing, the generic reader often fails to read data from Airbag, ABS/ESP, infotainment, instrument cluster, power steering, climate control and so on.

The problem here, might be that while the AA have a reader that can "talk" to the "Engine ECU" the error code needing to be erased is in the BMS module for example.

 

[thingaby]

I'm in France now. Typing on my phone in cafe so it will be brief. As was predicted they cleared the codes and ordered a new 12v battery but that was not for immediate for delivery. In the meantime my original battery was charged up and the test machine pronounced it good. So I've still got the original 12v battery on and I then charged up the HV at a gridserve near eurotunnel. I wont need to charge again until I get back to the UK by which time the replacement battery will have arrived at the dealers and be fitted. When I get home I will hassle my supplying dealer to chase the software fix. Fingers crossed and thanks to everyone who contributed. And of course back to the original thought. Should there be a nationwide recall?

 

[MaybeItWillFixItself]

When trying to charge at a Shell station recently, 'HV battery shut down' appeared on the screen of our MG5 LR (reg Sept 21). This happened after the Shell unit wouldn't accept payment and no charge had gone through to the car. The kindly AA recovery man tried disconnecting the 12v battery but to no avail. After the car was transported to the nearest dealer to home (100 miles from the Shell station in question), it cleared the error code, updated 'the software' (I've no idea what exactly) and said all should be well now (I've no idea why exactly) and that the HV shut down was unlikely to have been caused by the Shell station. The 12v battery didn't need to be changed.

My suggestion is that you ask your dealer if the software of your MG needs updating to avoid an HV shut down when recharging at a fast charger. And also try several types of rechargers locally so that, if the HV shut down problem does occur, at least you won't be 100 miles away from home at 10pm in the rain...

Happy recharging!

 

[biffo]

When trying to charge at a Shell station recently, 'HV battery shut down' appeared on the screen of our MG5 LR (reg Sept 21). This happened after the Shell unit wouldn't accept payment and no charge had gone through to the car. The kindly AA recovery man tried disconnecting the 12v battery but to no avail. After the car was transported to the nearest dealer to home (100 miles from the Shell station in question), it cleared the error code, updated 'the software' (I've no idea what exactly) and said all should be well now (I've no idea why exactly) and that the HV shut down was unlikely to have been caused by the Shell station. The 12v battery didn't need to be changed.

My suggestion is that you ask your dealer if the software of your MG needs updating to avoid an HV shut down when recharging at a fast charger. And also try several types of rechargers locally so that, if the HV shut down problem does occur, at least you won't be 100 miles away from home at 10pm in the rain...

Happy recharging!

This should be the details needed when enquiring at dealer about updates

HV battery shutoff when initiating rapid charge. Vehicle control system fault.

Gone are the days when cars get fixed with spanner’s anymore, it’s all software based. My 10mm spanner still waits its first use in my mk1's glovebox?

www.mgevs.com

 

[TonyP]

MG must know what version of software was installed at the factory, so why aren't they contacting affected customers?

 

[biffo]

Possibly due to none of the charging issues being deemed a safety issue - such as the recalls for the MG5SR roof rail rating or MG5LR KERS 3 brake lights.

The issue of some cars having a compatibility issue with some DC chargers seems to be impacting a small percentage of the user base - might be standard industry practice to fix this affected and tackle everyone else at scheduled service intervals. This is utter speculation on how it works though.

This would annoy me massively if I was impacted - but a few people on a forum isn't likely to be a huge priority to provide a national recall or even a letter to all owners ?‍ On the plus side, everyone can contact their dealer and get the updates done for free. Same as happened to the ZS software updates for Comfort and the faulty BMS update.

 

[Mogshock]

Problem with that is when the dealer acts dumb as if they've never heard of the issue.

Saying that I used a rapid (an Instavolt) while on my jollybobs in Yorkshire last week and all was fine. One theory from what I'm reading is if the 12V battery level drops too far while charging. I wonder if people are sitting in their car with the heater/air con/infotainment on and draining the battery and that's what is causing it. That's not to say it shouldn't be sorted as a matter of priority but might be a way to avoid it.

Update... just spoke to Chorley MG and they do know about the issue. But my car didn't come up on the "affected" list. They did caveat though that they can't be sure until they attach the car to their system but were happy to apply the updates. FAO Mangoletsi... THAT's service!

 

[thingaby]

When trying to charge at a Shell station recently, 'HV battery shut down' appeared on the screen of our MG5 LR (reg Sept 21). This happened after the Shell unit wouldn't accept payment and no charge had gone through to the car. The kindly AA recovery man tried disconnecting the 12v battery but to no avail. After the car was transported to the nearest dealer to home (100 miles from the Shell station in question), it cleared the error code, updated 'the software' (I've no idea what exactly) and said all should be well now (I've no idea why exactly) and that the HV shut down was unlikely to have been caused by the Shell station. The 12v battery didn't need to be changed.

My suggestion is that you ask your dealer if the software of your MG needs updating to avoid an HV shut down when recharging at a fast charger. And also try several types of rechargers locally so that, if the HV shut down problem does occur, at least you won't be 100 miles away from home at 10pm in the rain...

Happy recharging!

Sound advice, thank you. I believe that the charger spiked and the MG software was unable to cope with it. I was a fool to hook up to a charger that I knew to have caused other MGs to fail. On Wednesday this week I had the recommended 'cure' having the software updated as recommended in bulletin AS-22-025 and the dealer included 2 other updates as well. I have only seen two reports in the forum of cars failing after being updated but I don't think they were specific about being updated 'as per bulletin AS-22-025'. So, I'm hopeful.
Wednesday this week was a very big day for us because after more than 6 months of ownership the car is finally working as expected. It hasn't since day 1. On Wednesday the defective infotainment screen was replaced by a working screen (sent from China) so we were able to activate the car and bind to it. We now have sat nav functionality and ismart. I don't know what else.
The service manager at out dealer refers to the infotainment screen as the radio which I take to mean the central communications hub rather than just a radio broadcast receiver. (I never had a problem getting radio broadcasts). Whilst he hadn't come across any other example of a car being bricked at the charger he did say that he had lots of problems with defective 'radio's' ...."beyond a joke".
One last thought. My HV breakdown resulted in us having to spend 2 nights in a hotel whilst waiting for the repair. Although the AA approved the first night and the second they have only paid for one night. I'll chase that a bit further if I get the energy.

 

[TonyP]

Have just emailed my local dealer to find out if they are aware and capable of performing the update.

 

[hmadsen]

Why did they not recall all cars for this.

Answer is simple.

They did 2 calculations

1. What is the price of a recall, where every car has to be recalled, and MG has to pay the dealer for the update.

2. What is the total cost of doing nothing now, and just having the software updated, as part of a service, the costumer themselves pay for, and then paying a bit for the ones, who encounter the problem.

My guess is that they found option 2 to be a lot cheaper, and since it is a very small percentage that has this problem, they are probably not going to lose a lot of goodwill with current owners, and since they will certainly be saying "We fixed that" new potential buyers are not going to care.

Simple math, this is the standard operating mode for most automanufacturers.

 

[biffo]

Why did they not recall all cars for this.

Answer is simple.

They did 2 calculations

1. What is the price of a recall, where every car has to be recalled, and MG has to pay the dealer for the update.

2. What is the total cost of doing nothing now, and just having the software updated, as part of a service, the costumer themselves pay for, and then paying a bit for the ones, who encounter the problem.

My guess is that they found option 2 to be a lot cheaper, and since it is a very small percentage that has this problem, they are probably not going to lose a lot of goodwill with current owners, and since they will certainly be saying "We fixed that" new potential buyers are not going to care.

Simple math, this is the standard operating mode for most automanufacturers.

Agree with your point about recalls only happening if any manufacturer has no other option due to cost implications.

In all fairness to MG, Miles mentioned on the podcast that MG has authorised AS-22028 to allow dealers to charge the cost of the AS-22-025 update to MG. So, not a recall but it is an update with no cost to customer or dealer. Mine was done as I saw some rapid chargers which would only occasionally work.

In times where there aren’t a lot of new cars being delivered, having a manufacturer willing to pay for an update must help dealers stay financially afloat.

 

[hmadsen]

Agree with your point about recalls only happening if any manufacturer has no other option due to cost implications.

In all fairness to MG, Miles mentioned on the podcast that MG has authorised AS-22028 to allow dealers to charge the cost of the AS-22-025 update to MG. So, not a recall but it is an update with no cost to customer or dealer. Mine was done as I saw some rapid chargers which would only occasionally work.

In times where there aren’t a lot of new cars being delivered, having a manufacturer willing to pay for an update must help dealers stay financially afloat.

But still, any potential victim of this problem, has to know themselves that there is a potential problem and ask the dealer on their own accord to have the update applied.

If they had sent every owner a letter stating "There is a very low risk, potential problem, please pop in for an update if you feel like it or else we will just apply it at the next service" i would have been happy.

In the 3 year period i owned my previous car i had 3 letters from the manufacturer to come by and have stuff updated.

First one was related to safety so this was mandatory, but the other 2 was "just" updating the firmware in the engine, to make it comply better with emissions, and these were not mandatory, but i was told about them, and had the option to go get them applied for free. (Last 2 were essentially "diesel scandal" emissions fixes, that i chose NOT to have applied as these would lower, both the MPG and the BHP)

 

[biffo]

But still, any potential victim of this problem, has to know themselves that there is a potential problem and ask the dealer on their own accord to have the update applied.

If they had sent every owner a letter stating "There is a very low risk, potential problem, please pop in for an update if you feel like it or else we will just apply it at the next service" i would have been happy.

In the 3 year period i owned my previous car i had 3 letters from the manufacturer to come by and have stuff updated.

First one was related to safety so this was mandatory, but the other 2 was "just" updating the firmware in the engine, to make it comply better with emissions, and these were not mandatory, but i was told about them, and had the option to go get them applied for free. (Last 2 were essentially "diesel scandal" emissions fixes, that i chose NOT to have applied as these would lower, both the MPG and the BHP)

Get your point, and I’m not defending MG as don’t really have any real opinion on this either way - especially since my has been updated!

The first scenario you mention is similar to the letter MG sent about the MG5LR KERS3 brake lights - which was a safety recall. No idea if they sent letters about the ZS Comfort update or faulty BMS issues or not.

The second scenario is a manufacturer’s attempt to avoid further group legal action and the further massive costs - sending a letter likely removed liability. If MG, or anyone else, gets successfully prosecuted over cars failing to charge, expect a similar letter then. Might not be a bad thing if it forces quicker action.

Until then, customer service is pretty much what I’d expect - if you encounter an issue, they’ll get you to dealership using the AA service they provide and fix the issue for free under warranty ?‍

 

[Lovemyev]

Manufactures will avoid applying a blanket “Recall” notice on there cars unless it is absolutely 110 % necessary, or they have been TOLD to enforce it by a exterior body.
Usually this has been brought about when it is deemed to be a urgent safety issue, like the faulty air bag / seat belt issues a couple of years ago.
Manufactures don’t want “Recall” notices applied to there cars.
The bricking issue is a massive inconvenience to affected owners, but it’s likely not to be seen as requiring a total “Recall” notice.
Like others have said, the BMS problem that reduced the range and power of some cars, was only treated in the same way.
Attended to when either it was presented to a GOOD dealer for annual service, or by the direct Request from a customer !.
We have seen customers cars offered up for service and left with out the update being applied.
My guess is, there a LOT of cars still in daily use without this update ever getting done.
It’s a little the same with this bricking update, it is either being driven by a customer request or applied when the car is delivered on the back of a low loader.
It’s a reactive, rather than proactive condition here I think folks.
I think they call it :- “Tail wagging the dog ?”.

 

[MichaelJHunt]

Manufactures will avoid applying a blanket “Recall” notice on there cars unless it is absolutely 110 % necessary, or they have been TOLD to enforce it by a exterior body.
Usually this has been brought about when it is deemed to be a urgent safety issue, like the faulty air bag / seat belt issues a couple of years ago.
Manufactures don’t want “Recall” notices applied to there cars.
The bricking issue is a massive inconvenience to affected owners, but it’s likely not to be seen as requiring a total “Recall” notice.
Like others have said, the BMS problem that reduced the range and power of some cars, was only treated in the same way.
Attended to when either it was presented to a GOOD dealer for annual service, or by the direct Request from a customer !.
We have seen customers cars offered up for service and left with out the update being applied.
My guess is, there a LOT of cars still in daily use without this update ever getting done.
It’s a little the same with this bricking update, it is either being driven by a customer request or applied when the car is delivered on the back of a low loader.
It’s a reactive, rather than proactive condition here I think folks.
I think they call it :- “Tail wagging the dog ?”.

I have not experienced any issues with my long range Trophy Connect. I don’t fancy the idea of a forced recall to “fix” a problem I don’t have. The chances of any software updated not “fixing”, but “breaking” my car make me want to stay away from the dealer.

Clearly, if my car had shown the problem then I would have liked it “fixed”. I would still like to have known what exactly they had been doing to fix the issue and what was causing it.

 

[RAZA]

Same has happened to me, MG5, but the AA man read the faults with an OBD2 device (nothing shown) then cleared faults anyway and that fixed it, he says it is an MG problem with faulty chargers. Since then I have bought a Bluetooth OBD2 dongle to use with my phone if it happens again.

Which OBD2 is compatible with MG5 LR