ChargePlace Scotland overstay fees

[Rolfe]

I think you're probably screwed I'm afraid.

I'm just back from our village charger. It's the only one there is for miles around. The notice clearly states that there is a 45 minute time limit on using it, and doesn't qualify this in any way as to which connection is being used. (It has CCS, type 2 and CHAdeMO.) There is also a 90 minute prohibition on returning. The only concession is that there is a 10-minute grace period. So I make damn sure to disconnect 54 minutes and 30 seconds after charging starts, knowing that if a fine kicks in I've already incurred 10 minutes worth.

The time limit is there to stop any one person hogging the only charger in the area for an inordinate length of time, and in that respect it doesn't matter whether they're using the CCS or the type 2 connector. It seems harsh at times when there is nobody else around who wants to use the thing, but I don't know what else they can do. I have sat at home watching the app and waiting for that charger to be free, and if someone had sat on it for ages because they were only using the type 2 connector I'd not have been happy.

It was rough that the CCS connector was on the blink, but I think the best you can do with that is take your maximum allowed time and - if you're not able to wait until the no-return-before period has elapsed - use it to get yourself to another charge point. Then when you've gone, some other poor sod will be able to do the same thing.

What is the type 2 connector even for? Well, someone might want it for an hour to balance-charge a car they had filled up on the CCS earlier, or in the situation you found yourself, a few miles is better than nothing at all, I suppose.

 

[omega22]

Looked it up on the map and it does mention the overstay fee. (

View attachment 17473

Yes I’m not disputing that I overstayed. I’m complaining to them that you can’t get enough charge on an AC charger in an hour for it to be worthwhile using. The DC charger didn’t work after 3 attempts to connect so I put it on the AC for 1 hour 20 mins. As Gadget Geek suggests the overstay fee is unfair considering that this amount of time on an AC unit would normally cost just over £1. They have effectively rendered all the AC units useless.

 

[Rolfe]

As I said. The time limit is there so that one person can't hog the only charger for an extended period. It's irrelevant which connector you're using.

It's unfortunate that the CCS connector wasn't working, but that doesn't change the rules. The best you can do is get what you can on the type 2 in the time allowed, then use that to get you to another charger, and then let some other poor bugger in to do the same thing.

What use is the type 2 connector at all, with this time limit? One thing it's good for is to allow someone to do a balance charge, if they have filled their battery up earlier in the day using the CCS connector - you can typically come back for another bite 90 minutes after disconnecting. Another thing is, if the CSS connector isn't working, at least you can get something, maybe enough to get you to the next charge point.

Believe me, I'm sympathetic, but I understand the reasons for the rules, and I don't see why they would be obliged to waive them just because the CSS connector was down.

 

[Ayoull]

As I said. The time limit is there so that one person can't hog the only charger for an extended period. It's irrelevant which connector you're using.

It's unfortunate that the CCS connector wasn't working, but that doesn't change the rules. The best you can do is get what you can on the type 2 in the time allowed, then use that to get you to another charger, and then let some other poor bugger in to do the same thing.

What use is the type 2 connector at all, with this time limit? One thing it's good for is to allow someone to do a balance charge, if they have filled their battery up earlier in the day using the CCS connector - you can typically come back for another bite 90 minutes after disconnecting. Another thing is, if the CSS connector isn't working, at least you can get something, maybe enough to get you to the next charge point.

Believe me, I'm sympathetic, but I understand the reasons for the rules, and I don't see why thry would be obliged to waive them just because the CSS connector was down.

Type2 at 22kW if your car is capable with a efficiency of say 3mi/kWh you can get 39.6mi assuming 80% charging efficiency over a 45min period.

Which in many cases is more than enough to make it to another charger if needed, both of our EVs max out at 6.6kW so for us it's only 11.88mi at that efficiency but that's generally still enough to reach another charger if necessary.

 

[tsedge]

Type2 at 22kW if your car is capable with a efficiency of say 3mi/kWh you can get 39.6mi assuming 80% charging efficiency over a 45min period.

Which in many cases is more than enough to make it to another charger if needed, both of our EVs max out at 6.6kW so for us it's only 11.88mi at that efficiency but that's generally still enough to reach another charger if necessary.

This is important - 22kW is enough to be a game changer in these situations. This is why we need manufacturers to provide that capability on all/most cars.

 

[Ayoull]

This is important - 22kW is enough to be a game changer in these situations. This is why we need manufacturers to provide that capability on all/most cars.

I do wish MG had gone with 11kW on all the MG4s as some of our depots at work have 11kW 3ph charging (and 22kW at others) which I only achieve 3.68kW on as I have the SE SR and missus has ZS EV MK1

 

[Gadget Geek]

Putting a one hour limit on a 7kWh charger literally renders it useless as they wouldn't make much money from charging. However, put an overstay charge on it and suddenly they are making 60x the amount of money.

These aren't called "destination chargers" for nothing. They are supposed to allow you to charge at your destination whilst you go and do something else.

Is that the ghost of Dick Turpin I hear laughing?

 

[Ayoull]

Putting a one hour limit on a 7kWh charger literally renders it useless as they wouldn't make much money from charging. However, put an overstay charge on it and suddenly they are making 60x the amount of money.

These aren't called "destination chargers" for nothing. They are supposed to allow you to charge at your destination whilst you go and do something else.

Is that the ghost of Dick Turpin I hear laughing?

On a 7kw charger yes it is a bit "stand and deliver" but this is a AC lead on a rapid is my understanding so would be a 22kW charger usually.

And the overstay fee is to make sure the unit is free for another to use as soon as possible which to me is reasonable

 

[5teep]

Yes I’m not disputing that I overstayed. I’m complaining to them that you can’t get enough charge on an AC charger in an hour for it to be worthwhile using. The DC charger didn’t work after 3 attempts to connect so I put it on the AC for 1 hour 20 mins. As Gadget Geek suggests the overstay fee is unfair considering that this amount of time on an AC unit would normally cost just over £1. They have effectively rendered all the AC units useless.

I agree absolutely it's a rediculous charge to put on an AC charger and it doesn't matter that it's AC on a rapid it's still not faster. I suspect the charge was levied by someone who has no idea about charge rates etc. Afaik, AC on rapids in the highlands is also subject to the overstay limits as they don't distinguish between AC/DC (I'd be thunderstruck if they did it in full knowledge..)

 

[Rolfe]

What do you guys want ChargePlace Scotland to do about this going forward? Remove the type 2 facility from these chargers completely, or disable it? What good would that do and what satisfaction would it give you?

They're multi-purpose village chargers. A single charger is equipped to deliver all three types of charging. One expects that the DC charging will be most commonly used, probably overwhelmingly, but the type 2 just sits there on the side anyway.

It's there if anyone does have a reason for using it - like a balance charge, for someone who doesn't have home charging. You found the DC connector was out of order. Without the type 2 being there you'd have had nothing at all! With the type 2 you at least had the possibility to get something. That it wasn't as much as you wanted is the fault of the malfunctioning CCS charger, not the type 2 charger or the rules.

I tried a type 2 charge on one of these chargers last month, as my first foray into using a public charger. I was on for 47 minutes and got 5.612 KWh for the princely sum of £1.68. Husbanded carefully, that could get you over 20 miles. Surely that's better than nothing, surely you could have got to another charger with that? And the overstay fine was designed to ensure that someone else could get on after you to do the same thing.

The charger was faulty. The fact that the type 2 facility was there and working meant that it wasn't useless. Expecting to be able to charge on the type 2 as you had been intending to charge on the malfunctioning CCS connector wasn't really reasonable under the circumstances. The best thing to have done would have been to understand this, take what the type 2 was able to give you, and find somewhere else.

I'm not unsympathetic, but people seem to be demanding that the type 2 shouldn't be there at all if there isn't a time extension for using it, and that isn't reasonable. It's not reasonable to expect to be allowed to hog the only charger in the village for an extended period just because the CCS connector is down, and it's not reasonable to imagine that the type 2 facility shouldn't be there because you personally think it's useless with the time limit. 20 miles is better than nothing, from a faulty charge point.

 

[5teep]

What do you guys want ChargePlace Scotland to do about this going forward?

It's nothing to do with Chargeplace Scotland, they just run the network.

 

[Rolfe]

OK, substitute whoever makes these decisions. I think the chargers are good as they are. I think the type 2 facility is something that's occasionally useful and shouldn't be removed just because some people think it's useless if there's a short time limit on the charger. I think one of the uses could be to give someone 20 miles of range if the CCS connector is down.

 

[Gadget Geek]

OK, substitute whoever makes these decisions. I think the chargers are good as they are. I think the type 2 facility is something that's occasionally useful and shouldn't be removed just because some people think it's useless if there's a short time limit on the charger. I think one of the uses could be to give someone 20 miles of range if the CCS connector is down.

A second or third CCS would be a better idea. 7kW AC chargers are designed for long stay situations, that's why they are called "destination chargers".

 

[Ayoull]

A second or third CCS would be a better idea. 7kW AC chargers are designed for long stay situations, that's why they are called "destination chargers".

Is it a 7kW or has been alluded to a 22kW which can furnish circa 39-40miles in 45mins and is of use to cars such as Renault Zoe's that don't always have CCS capabilities

 

[Gadget Geek]

Is it a 7kW or has been alluded to a 22kW which can furnish circa 39-40miles in 45mins and is of use to cars such as Renault Zoe's that don't always have CCS capabilities

Yeah, but most UK cars are only 7kW due to single phase supply being the norm.

 

[smokie]

A second or third CCS would be a better idea.

In your eyes maybe. But not for the company trying to make money. I expect each charger costs thousands of pounds to install and maintain.

 

[Ayoull]

Yeah, but most UK cars are only 7kW due to single phase supply being the norm.

Only the norm for domestic customers, every commercial and industrial customer is 3ph

 

[5teep]

Only the norm for domestic customers, every commercial and industrial customer is 3ph

~95% of cars have only 7kw chargers on board and it matters not whether the AC charge post is capable of 22kw or higher output.

In your eyes maybe. But not for the company trying to make money. I expect each charger costs thousands of pounds to install and maintain.

Have seen a couple of 25kw CCS only chargers recently that are about the same size as an AC post, I'm guessing these would be a lot cheaper to buy. So the market is adapting to the needs of customers, slowly but...

 

[Ayoull]

~95% of cars have only 7kw chargers on board and it matters not whether the AC charge post is capable of 22kw or higher output.

Is this based on a personal survey of every EV in the UK? Or just your own belief?

As apparently there are over 200 models capable of atleast 11kW

Electric Cars AC Charging Comparison | EVspecs

Electric Cars AC Charging Comparison

www.myevreview.com

 

[Rolfe]

These three-connectors-one-car charge-points are all-purpose rural facilities. The type 2 might as well be there as not, and might occasionally be useful. It's a misunderstanding of the situation to say that it's pointless having that connector if there's a shortish time limit on the charger. There is a DC connector for anyone who wants to charge fast, and that will be most people, but the AC one isn't doing any harm being there, even if it's not often used.

The problem in the case of the OP was that the DC connector was out of service, so he couldn't get what he wanted. He should have realised that he was lucky the type 2 was there because it would at least give him 20 miles or so rather than leaving him with nothing. Instead he tried to treat the charger as if it was a dedicated destination charger, which these things ain't.