MG ZS EV Owner shame on you

[JodyS21]

Show me a stretch of road between two chargers longer than 80 miles with no other chargers in between

That's easy, with no detour to get to a charger, it's the route I go on holiday to Norfolk. It's a right pain. And I did on one of those journeys charge to getting on to 90% so I could make it home without having to try to find another charger.

 

[Gomev]

You are proposing a scenario where you are arriving at a rapid charge point and need to charge up to 90% to reach your destination. ...

Indeed I was.

 

[WalkingBootWeather]

That's easy, with no detour to get to a charger, it's the route I go on holiday to Norfolk. It's a right pain. And I did on one of those journeys charge to getting on to 90% so I could make it home without having to try to find another charger.

Have you tried ABRP. Don't know where you holiday but likely you return via Cambridge or Peterborough both of which have rapid choices close to your likely route.

The programmers of ABRP must be missing a trick because I've yet to see them suggest a scenario where dwelling on a charger to nearly full is the most efficient option (low range EVs aside).

There is a danger of entering a vicious circle where everyone ends up sitting on rapid chargers for a long time to achieve high SoC because they are afraid they may have a long wait to get on another charger further down the route, and the reason they might have a long wait is because someone else is doing the same.

If we could break out of this and everyone vacated rapid chargers when then got to 80% or 45 mins (whichever comes first) unless of course nobody is queueing, the total wait time in the system would reduce.

 

[biffo]

Have you tried ABRP. Don't know where you holiday but likely you return via Cambridge or Peterborough both of which have rapid choices close to your likely route.

The programmers of ABRP must be missing a trick because I've yet to see them suggest a scenario where dwelling on a charger to nearly full is the most efficient option (low range EVs aside).

There is a danger of entering a vicious circle where everyone ends up sitting on rapid chargers for a long time to achieve high SoC because they are afraid they may have a long wait to get on another charger further down the route, and the reason they might have a long wait is because someone else is doing the same.

If we could break out of this and everyone vacated rapid chargers when then got to 80% or 45 mins (whichever comes first) unless of course nobody is queueing, the total wait time in the system would reduce.

I don't disagree & this is hopefully where we're heading, but at this point in time it's a little idealistic.

The network needs to improve at a faster rate than EV uptake as it's currently barely fit for purpose at the busier times - hopefully the Tesla units will become available in UK soon to add additional capacity. Until then, if there is a need to exceed 80% charge to avoid an additional stop, and there is no one waiting (which admittedly isn't always obvious as some may bypass a unit if it's showing busy on their realtime feeds), then it's not an issue to do this - but of course, this doesn't need to be the norm, just when needed.

On this point of Tesla units, they apparently have a higher current which means hopefully a faster charge rate. Just now, the 50kW units need to be faster and the 120kW need to be consistent. Limiting to 45 minutes is great, but not when the unit is delivering 30kWh rather than 80kWh. I had a great experience at the MFG Crow Orchard 150kW, we need more of these multi-unit sites.

Edit: I should add, car parks with a dozen or more 22kW/7kW AC units are also needed - I did a 160 miles round trip from Glasgow -> Fife -> Perth. Having the choice of multiple sites with half a dozen 7kW chargers that I could plug into for an hour or two whilst shopping and having lunch made the return journey effortless and avoided any prospect of needing a DC top up.

 

[WalkingBootWeather]

I don't disagree & this is hopefully where we're heading, but at this point in time it's a little idealistic.

The network needs to improve at a faster rate than EV uptake as it's currently barely fit for purpose at the busier times - hopefully the Tesla units will become available in UK soon to add additional capacity. Until then, if there is a need to exceed 80% charge to avoid an additional stop, and there is no one waiting (which admittedly isn't always obvious as some may bypass a unit if it's showing busy on their realtime feeds), then it's not an issue to do this - but of course, this doesn't need to be the norm, just when needed

Imagine going to a wedding and being invited to partake in the buffet. Some people will take a sandwich, a slice of pie, a chicken drumstick etc. After everyone has been served they can return and get 'seconds'. Alternatively the first couple of people up take 3 slices of pie and 4 drumsticks each because it will save them having to make supper later. Great for them but it means those that come later have to go without. Is it idealistic to hope that people think of others?

Of course we need to be pragmatic so if you don't like chicken or sandwich fillings you can take an extra slice of pie. If your car is charging slower due to issues with the charger then it may be necessary to dwell longer, but it would be helpful to inform anyone waiting of conditions that might impact their charge too.

It can be a grey area though. A wait of 45 mins is the same regardless of what causes it, but I suspect attitudes vary depending on what causes that wait - a slow charger, a large battery EV taking on a big charge, an EV attempting to get to 90%+, an EV that charges slower due to design characteristics or 'coldgate', a poorly parked EV that prevent access to a 'vacant' charge point, a PHEV charging slowly, an ICE vehicle blocking the charger.

It is not up to me or any other individual to say which behaviours are acceptable and which are not, but is it useful for service providers and the community as a whole to give it some thought and to discourage behaviours that aren't desirable. All I'm saying is that with the limited infrastructure in place at the moment, if everyone decides to dwell for very long times then the average wait time for us all will increase.

 

[biffo]

Imagine going to a wedding and being invited to partake in the buffet. Some people will take a sandwich, a slice of pie, a chicken drumstick etc. After everyone has been served they can return and get 'seconds'. Alternatively the first couple of people up take 3 slices of pie and 4 drumsticks each because it will save them having to make supper later. Great for them but it means those that come later have to go without. Is it idealistic to hope that people think of others?

Of course we need to be pragmatic so if you don't like chicken or sandwich fillings you can take an extra slice of pie. If your car is charging slower due to issues with the charger then it may be necessary to dwell longer, but it would be helpful to inform anyone waiting of conditions that might impact their charge too.

It can be a grey area though. A wait of 45 mins is the same regardless of what causes it, but I suspect attitudes vary depending on what causes that wait - a slow charger, a large battery EV taking on a big charge, an EV attempting to get to 90%+, an EV that charges slower due to design characteristics or 'coldgate', a poorly parked EV that prevent access to a 'vacant' charge point, a PHEV charging slowly, an ICE vehicle blocking the charger.

It is not up to me or any other individual to say which behaviours are acceptable and which are not, but is it useful for service providers and the community as a whole to give it some thought and to discourage behaviours that aren't desirable. All I'm saying is that with the limited infrastructure in place at the moment, if everyone decides to dwell for very long times then the average wait time for us all will increase.

Interesting analogy - except you’ve invited 500 guests and catered for 250, without a vegetarian option - and quite a few of the sandwiches are mouldy ?‍

But in all seriousness, hogging a charger is bad. We know that. No one is suggesting otherwise. Etiquette will get worse as more drivers convert to EV and the networks needs to improve. Adding a few extra percent to guarantee getting home, or to a multi charger site, isn’t common practice but shouldn’t make you a pariah either though.

 

[WalkingBootWeather]

Agree completely. Catering needs to be adequate for both wedding buffet or ev drivers. However it shouldn't be necessary to have to over supply to cater for those that don't play nicely.

My worst ever charging experience was returning home late on a Sunday night with young kids in the car. I reached Newcastle, 50 miles form home with less than 10% (a range of 8-10 miles for the car I was driving at that time).

Stopped at a single rapid occupied by a Leaf that was charging but at 60%. Figured they would be back inside 20 mins so hung around. An hour later the Leaf was at 100% and driver had still not returned. Kids were restless so we moved on to another single rapid 2 or 3 miles up the road.

Another Leaf was charging but was at 85% with driver sat reading. Spoke to driver who said he needed to charge to 100% because they had a long journey the following day to do so would likely be another 30 mins. He was a friendly guy and we had a bit of a chat. It turned out he lived 2 miles away and did have a home charger but didn't want to use it because the rapid was free. I explained to him that taking on the final 15% was less than 5kWh and would likely cost him well under a pound at home, where he could be sitting in the warm in front of the tv with a cup of tea but he was not convinced.

I acknowledged he was there first and had every right to charge for as long as he wanted but explained my kids were tired and offered him £5 cash to vacate the charger early. To his credit he refused the money and after just 10 mins packed up and headed home. 20 mins charging was all I needed to get home.

You can probably quite rightly criticise me for poor planning and for being daft enough to attempt a long journey with kids, but for EVs to become mainstream, situations like this shouldn't occur.

Yes we need more chargers, hubs with multiple units and faster chargers. EV drivers need better education. I do think 'free' can lead to the wrong sort of behaviours; it doesn't have to if people use the free resource in exactly the same way as if they were paying, but human nature is what it is. but It is essential to have reasonable expectations of how long cars can be allowed to dwell and inducements to encourage movement after a fair time. Simply hoping that others behave fairly is not enough.

 

[JCFlippen]

‘Free’ seems to attract locals who hog the points available all day if need be. There should be a log in App that maybe free but has a chargeable time penalty.

 

[jamesie]

‘Free’ seems to attract locals who hog the points available all day if need be. There should be a log in App that maybe free but has a chargeable time penalty.

Time penalties are the answer IMO.

Also, free chargers do encourage poor behaviour. I have a few examples which I won't repeat here.

 

[biffo]

Agree completely. Catering needs to be adequate for both wedding buffet or ev drivers. However it shouldn't be necessary to have to over supply to cater for those that don't play nicely.

My worst ever charging experience was returning home late on a Sunday night with young kids in the car. I reached Newcastle, 50 miles form home with less than 10% (a range of 8-10 miles for the car I was driving at that time).

Stopped at a single rapid occupied by a Leaf that was charging but at 60%. Figured they would be back inside 20 mins so hung around. An hour later the Leaf was at 100% and driver had still not returned. Kids were restless so we moved on to another single rapid 2 or 3 miles up the road.

Another Leaf was charging but was at 85% with driver sat reading. Spoke to driver who said he needed to charge to 100% because they had a long journey the following day to do so would likely be another 30 mins. He was a friendly guy and we had a bit of a chat. It turned out he lived 2 miles away and did have a home charger but didn't want to use it because the rapid was free. I explained to him that taking on the final 15% was less than 5kWh and would likely cost him well under a pound at home, where he could be sitting in the warm in front of the tv with a cup of tea but he was not convinced.

I acknowledged he was there first and had every right to charge for as long as he wanted but explained my kids were tired and offered him £5 cash to vacate the charger early. To his credit he refused the money and after just 10 mins packed up and headed home. 20 mins charging was all I needed to get home.

You can probably quite rightly criticise me for poor planning and for being daft enough to attempt a long journey with kids, but for EVs to become mainstream, situations like this shouldn't occur.

Yes we need more chargers, hubs with multiple units and faster chargers. EV drivers need better education. I do think 'free' can lead to the wrong sort of behaviours; it doesn't have to if people use the free resource in exactly the same way as if they were paying, but human nature is what it is. but It is essential to have reasonable expectations of how long cars can be allowed to dwell and inducements to encourage movement after a fair time. Simply hoping that others behave fairly is not enough.

People are, in general, inconsiderate. Just now, EV drivers are generally quite interested in their EV as more than just a mechanism to travel from A to B - this will change as these become more mainstream. The average level of driver knowledge will reduce as most people simply don't care about how every aspect of their electric car works.

Some sort of legislation or fines introduced on a per network basis might be the answer - just now there is often an additional fee if you stay longer than a certain time or remain on the charger once 100% - maybe this needs to be a demand or time of day concept. Or maybe even dynamic pricing - at certain times of day, the price per kW changes from 0 - 50%, then from 51% to 60%, etc, etc. Maybe a queuing system where you pay an upfront fee to secure your place is the answer and when there is anyone else waiting to charge, results in a reduced limit for the unit i.e. 80% if one person waiting, 70% if two, etc - might not be workable, who knows...


I was at the local Rapid charger last week whilst I had half an hour to spare - daughter at an after school club. I was aiming for about 80% for usage over the weekend - but at about 70+% a black cab appeared, they couldn't get the 2nd unit working so I stopped and let them on - it's their livelihood depending on the charge and I was far from desperate. I've done the same for a Tesla at Southwaite services who needed a CCS when I was nearly at the level I needed to be too. Sounds like your Leaf drivers should have done similar for you.

Perhaps "Charger Rage" will be the next big thing - I certainly suspect there are going to be stories of angry encounters. Just wait until the stereotypical EV White Van become the norm.

 

[JodyS21]

Have you tried ABRP. Don't know where you holiday but likely you return via Cambridge or Peterborough both of which have rapid choices close to your likely route.

The programmers of ABRP must be missing a trick because I've yet to see them suggest a scenario where dwelling on a charger to nearly full is the most efficient option (low range EVs aside).

There is a danger of entering a vicious circle where everyone ends up sitting on rapid chargers for a long time to achieve high SoC because they are afraid they may have a long wait to get on another charger further down the route, and the reason they might have a long wait is because someone else is doing the same.

If we could break out of this and everyone vacated rapid chargers when then got to 80% or 45 mins (whichever comes first) unless of course nobody is queueing, the total wait time in the system would reduce.

I do use all of the charger/route apps, zap map being my favourite.
It would have involved me taking something like a 10min extra detour to get to another charging station if I had've stopped additionally, forget that extra hassle, especially should it not be working when I get there thus wasting more time. An extra 5 mins on my original charge past 80% was a much better solution

I don't like this "80%" being suggested so often, it's a finger in the air number that is not at all a set number at which all cars slow down to an "unacceptable" rate at.
My ZS when I charged from roughly 80-87% maybe slowed down the (kW) rate by something like 10% compared to what it was doing at 80%, so a negligible amount. If I had of let it continue I'm sure it would've slowed down more or course.
IMHO I really do think time plugged in should (also) be billed for, it will solve all of the issues.

 

[Mind the GAP]

Not sure what the problem is here. I rely on rapid chargers. I’ve never sat in my vehicle waiting for it to charge. I use a GeniePoint at a Morrisons right next door to me regularly. I often pop my vehicle on charge, do bit of shopping, walk home. Put shopping away. Pop dog on lead, take him around the block and collect car. I often choose later times so other shoppers can use the charger. I’ve even been know to pop vehicle on charge and return home for breakfast. At service stations I will grab a coffee and / or food. Last week I returned to vehicle at a BP Polar to find someone had unplugged car. He reported that the charger said my car was fully charged - and it was. Don’t mind that. In fact I must print my note that I’ll put up in my windscreen to say ‘unplug me if I’m fully charged’.

 

[biffo]

Not sure what the problem is here. I rely on rapid chargers. I’ve never sat in my vehicle waiting for it to charge. I use a GeniePoint at a Morrisons right next door to me regularly. I often pop my vehicle on charge, do bit of shopping, walk home. Put shopping away. Pop dog on lead, take him around the block and collect car. I often choose later times so other shoppers can use the charger. I’ve even been know to pop vehicle on charge and return home for breakfast. At service stations I will grab a coffee and / or food. Last week I returned to vehicle at a BP Polar to find someone had unplugged car. He reported that the charger said my car was fully charged - and it was. Don’t mind that. In fact I must print my note that I’ll put up in my windscreen to say ‘unplug me if I’m fully charged’.

It's worth registering with the NeedToCharge app and printing off the QR code for your windscreen - chances are you'll never get messaged but it's useful.

 

[Dan Sun]

This is what we usually do in China, to avoid inconvenience to others:
at the corner of the front window, we always put a card, with our mobile phone number written on. in case of we occupied others parking space, people can call the phone number to remind us to come and move.
in case you do not want to left you real phone numbers on the card, you can order an 2D barcode instead, it will show a call forward phone number.
in Thailand, car owners will release their hand brake. anyone can move the car (push) if needed. I think it is somehow little risk.

this is the "mobile phone display" I just bought for my new car:

the base material is Al. the logo was marked by laser.
the numbers can be easily peered off and attached to the holder.
the cost for a set is 5.7 RMB = 0.89 USD = 0.66 GBP, include the express delivery service.

I hope you would understand the low production cost, effiective logistic here in China.

 

[michaelgaunt]

Time penalties are the answer IMO.

Also, free chargers do encourage poor behaviour. I have a few examples which I won't repeat here.

NZ is about 12.5 pence per minute plus 12.5 pence per Kw on standard charges (nearly all 50kw but getting some faster ones). A good compromise and encourages leaving when you don’t need more.

I always find the 80% discussion a bit strange. 20-80 in a 100kw battery car is 60kw compared with the MGZS at 27kw.

 

[Gomev]

NZ is about 12.5 pence per minute plus 12.5 pence per Kw on standard charges (nearly all 50kw but getting some faster ones). A good compromise and encourages leaving when you don’t need more.

I always find the 80% discussion a bit strange. 20-80 in a 100kw battery car is 60kw compared with the MGZS at 27kw.

So let's assume your car SOC was at a point where you could take on board 50kWh AND it actually charged at 50kW ( )
Then 50 kWh at 12.5p is £6.25. Add in 60 mins at 12.5p which is £7.50 final bill of £13.25, the equivalent of 26.5p /kWh. Not too bad.
However we know that we don't always get top speed so costs will be higher, and if you could afford an expensive car that can charge quicker then it may be cheaper.
Personally I'm not in favour of being charged by time as well as for the cost of the materials, after all I wouldn't want to be charged extra for waiting longer in a supermarket queue at the checkout.

 

[WalkingBootWeather]

I wouldn't want to be charged extra for waiting longer in a supermarket queue at the checkout.

Nobody is suggesting that people waiting in a queue should pay more, be that queueing for a checkout or a charger. What is being debated is ways to minimise the wait time for those queuing behind. In the checkout analogy, only the person at the till might be charged more if for instance they didn't pack their bags as they went, or wanted to pay in penny pieces, because that is what is causing the delay for everyone else.

What needs to be achieved is an optimum solution considering all 3 stakeholders:

• the occupying vehicle that wants to take on power quickly and cheaply in order to complete a journey
• the waiting car(s) that want to access the charger asap thus becoming the occupying vehicle
• the charge point supplier that wants to maximise profits and throughput. It is better for them to satisfy more vehicles charging at higher rates for shorter periods than fewer vehicle charging at sub-optimal speeds for longer.

A degree of pragmatism is required so it is hard to give absolute charge times or SoC limits, and it may not be possible to satisfy everyone, but a situation where the occupying car can dwell for as long as they want is worse than one where they are obliged to give way after a reasonable time, even if they might prefer to stay longer. If nobody is waiting then by all means restart a charge session otherwise give way and join the back of the queue or find another place to stop along the route.

 

[Gomev]

The analogy is fine. I don't pay extra for taking my time in a supermarket to get the same goods that someone dashes in and out for.

 

[WalkingBootWeather]

What you do in a supermarket is your own business. It only affects others if you are blocking the checkout point by being slow to load and unload, faffing around with payment, wanting to have a long conversation with the cashier etc. If you have a trolley loaded with your weekly shop and someone behind only has a couple of items it is courteous to allow them to go first.

Maybe we need 'splash and dash' chargers than only give 15 mins charge - equivalent to express tills?

Maybe we need a 'fast pass' or 'early boarding pass' equivalent to give those willing to pay more preferential access? Note these only start to be really useful when the 'standard service' is below par.

What we can't have is a situation where you can't complete your shop because a single shopper is blocking the only till in operation for an excessive time, or an ev driver that cannot complete their journey because the only working rapid is blocked for an excessive time.

 

[biffo]

The issue, as I see it, is that until recently, EV ownership has been predominantly a group of people who roughly share values, have an interest in how their vehicle works - almost like the old fashioned concept of waving at other drivers of the same brand or club.

That's gone.

There is no courtesy. The same people who park in disabled spaces, exceed the speed limit, hug your bumper too close, block pavements and force prams and wheelchairs on the road, etc, etc are now the same people who will drive EVs. If a charger can get ICE'd just now, it'll be worse when people regularly block it at 100% charge and don't come back. Some people will still behave politely - just as they always do - others won't care if you're on 5% and have tired kids.

So - unless there is a mechanism to deter and penalise bad behaviour, it will happen. Just as it does with other aspects of driving now. We need more chargers. Better reliability. Faster charge rates. And we need a better mechanism to charge overstaying fees. The balance has to be such that wealthier people don't just ignore the rules though - as an extra £10 or £20 doesn't really matter to some. Same with preferential access - this becomes a tiered system for what is essentially a commodity. Guaranteed to cause resentment.