Car or computer

[OriginalBigAl]

I,m going to try a serious post ( for a change ) .
I am buying MG4 as opposed to leasing and would hope to keep it for along time , around 18 years like my present 307.
In the last 18 years I have had mechanical /electrical problems but nothing serious and all easily fixed none of which required a breakdown truck.
In the same period we have had around 7 different laptops 5 of which are useless due to either some unknown failure in the electronic circuity or through software / update issues or 1 is fine but on unsupported XP so is slower than a chimpanzee with an abacus .
Comparing this to a modern car especially an EV which basically will not work without the correct software and is going to be reliant on transistors and capacitors and microchips which cost pennies and over the years have let us down in laptops ,and have lived in dry warm jiggle free conditions, then what chance longevity for their EV cousins. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
You may own a computer but do you own the software or is it just borrowed from Microsoft who update it at their whim , you may have some say in this and can go through the hassle of removing certain parts which you think may be corrupted and trying to repair the damage, or pay an expert to do this for you. How does this compare to EV software updates , especially when levels of secrecy surround their implementation. Has this to do with intellectual property rights to which we the customer have no rights of reply.
Imagine you have a car which is working perfectly, you take for an annual service, updates are applied you never asked for or were even given the choice, and it comes back in a worse state, is the onus on you to prove this deterioration , the hassle of having it fixed will be. This is not a dig at MG but will probably be be industry wide. I have often thought computers have a built in shelf life ,and as such have become consumable items to be chucked when its not economical to repair them , are cars going the same way.
After the 7 year warranty period expires will updates remain free or if you are cynical will updates be doctored to create time delayed problems to provide work for accredited garages?
I may have bought my car but do I really own it.
Replies to the usual address.

 

[bowfer]

Longevity is proving to be very impressive in some EVs.
Plenty of older Leafs going around, still on the original batteries too.

 

[jonney]

The hardware's ability to run software as it is updated applies just as much to ICE vehicles as it does with BEV. All vehicles are becoming more software reliant and OEMs are perusing Software as a Service.
One key difference between consumer electronics and these vehicles is the functional safety requirements that are implemented. Safety critical systems are in isolation to infotainment so these wont degrade in performance with updates. It's possible that the infotainment wold become degraded over time/updates. But there are no examples of this yet from what I have seen.
Once you start talking in terms of a decade plus the battery is going to be your big cost.


Also to give any laptop a new lease on life format the drive and install a fresh OS. Win 10 is lighter the older ones (if the hardware is compatible). Or go Linux.

 

[bowfer]

Once you start talking in terms of a decade plus the battery is going to be your big cost.

Not necessarily.
Yes degradation will occur with time, but it’s happening a lot slower than anyone anticipated.
And the level of degradation itself may not be an issue.
One owner might call the car useless with 80% capacity, another owner might be fine with it.
Then we get into the possibility of parts of the battery being repaired, rather than whole pack replacement.

 

[jonney]

Yeah I don't mean "at 10 years you will 100% need a new battery". They degrade over time and it is a substantial cost that you will need to keep in mind as it gets near the point where you cant accept the level it's at.

Then we get into the possibility of parts of the battery being repaired, rather than whole pack replacement.

I haven't seen any OEM make a move towards that.

 

[Ian Key]

Laptops are continually updated to "improve" performance and add more processor hungry applications so need better hardware to keep running.

With an EV the updates are to improve the existing functions not to add so the existing hardware will cope.

 

[Cocijo]

I,m going to try a serious post ( for a change ) .
I am buying MG4 as opposed to leasing and would hope to keep it for along time , around 18 years like my present 307.
In the last 18 years I have had mechanical /electrical problems but nothing serious and all easily fixed none of which required a breakdown truck.
In the same period we have had around 7 different laptops 5 of which are useless due to either some unknown failure in the electronic circuity or through software / update issues or 1 is fine but on unsupported XP so is slower than a chimpanzee with an abacus .
Comparing this to a modern car especially an EV which basically will not work without the correct software and is going to be reliant on transistors and capacitors and microchips which cost pennies and over the years have let us down in laptops ,and have lived in dry warm jiggle free conditions, then what chance longevity for their EV cousins. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
You may own a computer but do you own the software or is it just borrowed from Microsoft who update it at their whim , you may have some say in this and can go through the hassle of removing certain parts which you think may be corrupted and trying to repair the damage, or pay an expert to do this for you. How does this compare to EV software updates , especially when levels of secrecy surround their implementation. Has this to do with intellectual property rights to which we the customer have no rights of reply.
Imagine you have a car which is working perfectly, you take for an annual service, updates are applied you never asked for or were even given the choice, and it comes back in a worse state, is the onus on you to prove this deterioration , the hassle of having it fixed will be. This is not a dig at MG but will probably be be industry wide. I have often thought computers have a built in shelf life ,and as such have become consumable items to be chucked when its not economical to repair them , are cars going the same way.
After the 7 year warranty period expires will updates remain free or if you are cynical will updates be doctored to create time delayed problems to provide work for accredited garages?
I may have bought my car but do I really own it.
Replies to the usual address.

Your model of keeping a car for 18 years is very outdated (although many on here will love that) . You are also in the minority and most will change their cars every 3 to 4 Years. If you are concerned I would stick with what you know for now and see how it all develops.
I think modern EV’s will have at least as much longevity as ICE. Third party software will become more readily available and battery packs will last a long time. The franchise dealer model will eventually disappear and become more open providing greater choice and competition for repairs.

 

[bowfer]

Yeah I don't mean "at 10 years you will 100% need a new battery". They degrade over time and it is a substantial cost that you will need to keep in mind as it gets near the point where you cant accept the level it's at.


I haven't seen any OEM make a move towards that.

Tesla and Leaf batteries are repairable no problem.
Individual cells (if that’s the right term) being replaced rather than the whole pack.

 

[LeeP]

Tesla and Leaf batteries are repairable no problem.
Individual cells (if that’s the right term) being replaced rather than the whole pack.

As someone who works for a German OEM, this is 100% the direction the industry as a whole is going!

 

[jonney]

Tesla and Leaf batteries are repairable no problem.
Individual cells (if that’s the right term) being replaced rather than the whole pack.

Cant speak to Leaf but Tesla are notorious for replacing the entire pack for any issue.

 

[bowfer]

Cant speak to Leaf but Tesla are notorious for replacing the entire pack for any issue.

Tesla themselves might be, but there’s independent companies will do it (repair individual Tesla cells) no problem.
Check out the videos on YouTube etc

Timely text from my BIL, running a 5 as a taxi.
47000 miles, it’s not even a year old yet.
Battery health 100%.
So much absolute horsepoop spoken by barstool experts about batteries, does my head in.

 

[OriginalBigAl]

Your model of keeping a car for 18 years is very outdated (although many on here will love that) . You are also in the minority and most will change their cars every 3 to 4 Years. If you are concerned I would stick with what you know for now and see how it all develops.
I think modern EV’s will have at least as much longevity as ICE. Third party software will become more readily available and battery packs will last a long time. The franchise dealer model will eventually disappear and become more open providing greater choice and competition for repairs.

My model of keeping the car 18 years is more financial than anything else, and if my average kilometrage is in keeping with past usage ,there should be no problem with the battery if advertised longevity quotes are accurate. My 307 is 19 years old , no rust, starts every time and gets me where I want and is a workhorse . The MG is going to be treated the same and I hope it will last as long .
Would I be over optimistic to expect that!
Also the French government are giving generous subsidies to take old diesels off the road in P/X for an EV , my wife is very keen on the environmental aspects, I am taken with 204 bhp so for 23 grand thats euros its a no brainer. That may be pocket money for a lot of people but not moi.
As a Lancastrian VFM is more than life its self , I,m sure my former Yorkie neighbours would agree.
( read tight git ).

 

[Deleted member 10041]

My model of keeping the car 18 years is more financial than anything else, and if my average kilometrage is in keeping with past usage ,there should be no problem with the battery if advertised longevity quotes are accurate. My 307 is 19 years old , no rust, starts every time and gets me where I want and is a workhorse . The MG is going to be treated the same and I hope it will last as long .
Would I be over optimistic to expect that!

I think you might be being a bit optimistic

 

[OriginalBigAl]

I think you might be being a bit optimistic

Noooooooooooooooooooo

 

[DangerousDoug]

This is a very thought-provoking thread, with an intellegent premise. My take on the thoughts so far are: 1. I have two MacBook Pros which are 13 years old and are as great as the day they were born, plus one even older generic laptop running linux. So it is possible for even domestic electronics to last a long time. 2. Keeping a car for 18 years is impressive, but only practical when auto technology didn't move much. Nowadays car science is moving at a very rapid pace, and the cost of running older cars is becoming higher and higher. Case in point, we traded in my wife's 12 year old Skoda Fabia for an MG ZS EV in 2020, and saved around £10 a month overall, including garage bills, fuel etc. 3. Modern EV batteries (especially the Lithium Iron Phosphate kind) are expected to last around 1million miles, so the car running gear will wear out long before the battery becomes unusable (they're even talking about re-using old EV batteries in newer cars, rather than simply recycling the materials). So in conclusion, there will be very old EVs still on the roads in 10 years' time, but us "early adopters" will all have moved on to new shiny vehicles for economic and technological reasons. ...and my lesson regarding the MacBook Pros - if you buy the best, it'll last; if you don't, it wont!!

 

[Cocijo]

This is a very thought-provoking thread, with an intellegent premise. My take on the thoughts so far are: 1. I have two MacBook Pros which are 13 years old and are as great as the day they were born, plus one even older generic laptop running linux. So it is possible for even domestic electronics to last a long time. 2. Keeping a car for 18 years is impressive, but only practical when auto technology didn't move much. Nowadays car science is moving at a very rapid pace, and the cost of running older cars is becoming higher and higher. Case in point, we traded in my wife's 12 year old Skoda Fabia for an MG ZS EV in 2020, and saved around £10 a month overall, including garage bills, fuel etc. 3. Modern EV batteries (especially the Lithium Iron Phosphate kind) are expected to last around 1million miles, so the car running gear will wear out long before the battery becomes unusable (they're even talking about re-using old EV batteries in newer cars, rather than simply recycling the materials). So in conclusion, there will be very old EVs still on the roads in 10 years' time, but us "early adopters" will all have moved on to new shiny vehicles for economic and technological reasons. ...and my lesson regarding the MacBook Pros - if you buy the best, it'll last; if you don't, it wont!!

Good points. This is not a loaded question but do you think ‘buying the best’ applies to MG? Or are all car makes fairly equal these days?

 

[Ian Key]

Good points. This is not a loaded question but do you think ‘buying the best’ applies to MG? Or are all car makes fairly equal these days?

The build quality and materials used for the non electric components is dependant in most cases of "buying the best." The electronic components and battery is probably more or less the same across the industry as there are only a few manufacturers of these products.

 

[bowfer]

Good points. This is not a loaded question but do you think ‘buying the best’ applies to MG? Or are all car makes fairly equal these days?

They’re certainly not equal, especially long term.

 

[Tweed98]

The car chassis might be OK, the shell of the car would be dependent on the maintenance regime of the owner and local road conditions, but the bit I'd be concerned about with any car EV or ICE is how the computer components will bear up with the outside conditions, heat and damp aren't friendly to processors and the ones in newer cars are more complicated than the early Sat Navs and produce their own heat when in use.

 

[OriginalBigAl]

You would not credit it, but I,m now having problems with this computer!
In 1979 as a 18 year old numpty I was in my first car, after 3 weeks the indicators stopped working. I had had the foresight to buy a Haynes manual and after a quick look worked out the relay was shot. Local motor factor had them in stock and the problem from start to finish was resolved in 4 hours for 2 quid which included driving 10 miles.
If I was to post on this forum ( hypothetically ) had MG4 for 3 weeks , indicators stopped working, fuses fine as is hazards need car in 4 hours time, anyone any ideas, what responses could I expect.
If it turns out it has a relay , lots of humble pie for me.
As an aside do Haynes still publish relevant manuals?
Thanks for all the replies, My post was meant to include all modern cars not just EVs and MG in particular but I feel that a lot of this software led microchip controlled electronics is a way were manufacturers can tie you in to service plans so you get the updates and were 3rd party ,private garages just will not be able to access the servers of the cars maker rendering their services less desirable. As for people who would like to service or work on their own cars then the conditions of typically 7 year warranties are a major discouragement no matter what their skill levels , which puts us back to shelling out cash to essentially a cartel.